Shuffle logic?

Anyone here have an idea of how the shuffle logic works on the Clip, or other Sandisk players?  Just wondering if it has something/anything to do with the title of the file - it seems mine plays certain songs more often than others and some songs it never seems to find (well, I can’t say “never” - I’ve not let it play all 350 songs from start to finish). Does it mess up the Shuffle flow when you turn off the player and turn it back on later?  Maybe this has been discussed in another thread here?  A lot of the titles on my player are untitled because they came from CD-R’s with untitled files, so I didn’t know if maybe a lot of tracks labeled “Track 1”, etc. have an effect on what gets played or doesn’t.  Comments on your experience with the Shuffle mode? 

My experience has been that the Clip will occasionally revisit a song that it’s already played … so I think what it probably does is just generate a random number within the range between 1 and the number of songs on the Clip (“Play All” mode), and then play that song.  I don’t think it keeps track of what songs it has already played … even if you press the “previous song” button, it doesn’t play the previous song.  Whether there’s any weighting to the numbers generated, I don’t know.

As for messing up the shuffle flow by restarting the Clip … not sure exactly what you mean, but if you mean “will it play a different sequence after restarting,” I’m not sure if there’s a way to know that because you can’t tell what the sequence is in the first place (because pressing the “previous song” button doesn’t return to the previous song).

What I was trying to say when asking about stopping the player & resuming,  I was wondering if it’s more likely to replay the same songs it played prior to cutting it off than if it doesn’t get turned off.  I would guess it remembers what it has played until it’s powered down and turned back on, then it’s a new random order which will mean songs it played 5 minutes ago could play again.  The ultimate shuffle mode would not play anything a second time until all the songs had been played once, regardless of power on or off.

Message Edited by RickH on 01-11-2008 04:03 PM

it doesnt remember anything at all… not songs,numbers, nothing… random play will use the same number more than once … thats what truly random means… it wont filter a song already played. turningoff, pausing , previous song button-- nothing changes the sequence. youre asking about a filter that itunes has in its options…

Message Edited by amkoas on 01-11-2008 01:08 PM

You’re right, random is random.  If there’s a Clip that comes out with a non-repeating shuffle, I’ll buy another one.  Or, maybe a future firmware could make it non-repeating - that would be great. 

The logic is Pseudo random.

When a list is loaded the random numbers are generated and the songs will not repeat within a given session.

If you power off and on the sequence will be regenerated and its possible you will hear a repeat.

SansaFix

thats good… i always use shuffle i remembered hearing repeats many times or so  i thought …i mustta hit a button or something-- i dunno…i was wrong for the 2nd time in 172 posts… mah bad…

You can also generate randomized playlists, but of course that’s another way and it may be irrelevant WRT the way you want to use shuffle and playlists in your Clip. For instance running a script or tool that does generate randomized playlists and copy them to the Clip, each time you connect it.

Message Edited by kukrapok on 01-14-2008 12:45 PM

What I’ve noticed in the few days that I’ve had my Clip (I love this thing!), is:

On shuffle, if you just let the sequence play, it doesn’t seem to repeat much- BUT…as soon as you use the fast-forward button to skip a song, it will start repeating recently-heard songs, and in the same order (or maybe reverse order…cant remember which) in which they recently played.

This surprises me- for what otherwise is such a great, high-quality product, you’d think the people who designed it would have a simple thing like random number generation figured out!

Yep, that’s the exact same thing I’ve noticed as well, but like you, I still love the Clip!!  (Hoping they’ll be a future firmware that will correct that shuffle issue, but it’s still a cool little player, for sure).

Please check this again. In my testing skipping songs in a list will not cause repeats.  Its possible Powering off and on will do this.

In my case, I had listened to some songs on shuffle- then, the next time I used the clip, skipped a song that came up…and after that, all the songs I had heard the last time I listened were repeated…every single one! (I had about 200 songs on the pl;ayer at the time- on “play all”)- But if I dont skip songs, it will shuffle fine, regardless of whether I power down or not. Weird…but it’s a small price to pay for a nice player like this.

RickH:

"You’re right, random is random.  If there’s a Clip that comes out with a non-repeating shuffle, I’ll buy another one.  Or, maybe a future firmware could make it non-repeating - that would be great. "

Just want to point out that before I purchased the Clip I had a Sansa e130 and it created a set of songs to be played randomly, which allowed you to move backwards and forwards through the set, and didn’t repeat songs. With the Clip, for some reason, they decided to select a random song as you move through the songs (whether manually or automatically), resulting in repeats as well as the inability to move backwards and forwards through the same set.

Sansafix:
“When a list is loaded the random numbers are generated and the songs will not repeat within a given session.”

I would disagree with this. If the random numbers were generated when the list was loaded, rather than at the time over moving backwards or forwards through the list, then you’d be able to move backwards or forwards through items in a fixed order that was determined when the list was loaded. As it is, though, you can’t.

i have a clip and c250…i compare both of them in shuffle mode and this is what happenes. when i skip a song on my c250 and press the rewind button it still goes back to the previous song that i played. and when i skip it again it will go next to the same song it went before. well, this is not the case on the clip, it just does it randomly. some weirdness…i like the randomness of the clip when choosing the next song but i think it will be pretty cool if remembering the previous song is possible by just hitting the rewind button. might need some extra squeeze on the logic gates though. what am i talking about. lol

@sansafix wrote:
Please check this again. In my testing skipping songs in a list will not cause repeats.  Its possible Powering off and on will do this.

All: Has this non-random “random” play feature yet been resolved on the 4GB Clip (I assume the firmware versions are the same for all in the Clip series?)?  I hear many repeats in a single playlist when I have shuffle turned on, so I always end up hearing the same portion of my playlist when I turn the thing on, which obviously is not how I want it to behave.

The 4GB Clip is my first Sansa player and I don’t want to begin a new post on the 4GB Clip forum if this issue has already been adressed.

If a firmware release does not fix the issue, any suggestions for workarounds to initiate truly random play order in a playlist? I really don’t want to write a script or any other labor intensive process. Thanks.

calkid wrote:

If a firmware release does not fix the issue, any suggestions for workarounds to initiate truly random play order in a playlist? I really don’t want to write a script or any other labor intensive process. Thanks.

There are quite a few different programs that will create a playlist with songs in a random order … is this what you mean?  MediaMonkey will do this.  Probably WMP will do it too, though I haven’t used WMP in a long time.

Yes, in WMP you can have a playlist and then select Shuffle List Now to shuffle it (I find it’s good to do that several times to get a good shuffling), and then save the playlist in that shuffled order.

But even if it’s easy, the point still remains that it would be a fixed playlist. I’d like to be able to turn on my Clip and have it give me a new random order each time. But I don’t want to lose that random order while I’m listening to the songs. I totally love the Clip – but I can’t stand losing a song once its over and not being able to just press Back to go back to it.

There needs to be a semi-permanent playlist – one that remains for the session, but is recreated anew each time.  Creating a fixed random playlist where the songs always play in the same order is almost as bad as no random order at all.

@ngins wrote:

Yes, in WMP you can have a playlist and then select Shuffle List Now to shuffle it (I find it’s good to do that several times to get a good shuffling), and then save the playlist in that shuffled order.

 

But even if it’s easy, the point still remains that it would be a fixed playlist. I’d like to be able to turn on my Clip and have it give me a new random order each time. But I don’t want to lose that random order while I’m listening to the songs. I totally love the Clip – but I can’t stand losing a song once its over and not being able to just press Back to go back to it.

 

There needs to be a semi-permanent playlist – one that remains for the session, but is recreated anew each time. 

My objective in random play is as ngins suggests above. All of my Appl@ iP*d players shuffle fixed playlists in random order (sorry, don’t hate me Appl@ bashers!), why can’t the Clip? I don’t want to have to manually reshuffle my playlists via software and then reload it, but rather have my fixed playlsit shuffled by the Clip.

I agree with ngins comment: “Creating a fixed random playlist where the songs always play in the same order is almost as bad as no random order at all.”

Sanasfix, any suggestions on this issue?

This is not unique to SanDisk/the Clip:  my iRiver hard drive player also originally had non-entirely-random shuffle issues.  Seems to be something about the randomizing process.  (It ultimately was improved/fixed there.)