Attention anyone who is thinking about buying a Clip or has recently bought one

MP3 players Sansa Clip | Clip+
27

did no one read slotmonsta’s post in this thread? it has been brought up with the dev team and he is waiting to hear back. besides i find it pretty hard to believe that this many people are actually bothered by this issue since there were extremely few posts regarding the issue with most all people never noticing it until recently when it was said that firmware was not being worked on this second. now it seams like poeple are coming from the woodwork complaining and frackly i am sick of it. it is probably just the same people posting under new accounts trying to make the situation look much worse than it is. slotmonsta if i were you i would check the IP of all these new posters and see if you can match them to one of the few people here where this issue is actually relevent.

you have the answer, they will work on it as time permits.  

Message Edited by drlucky on 09-16-2009 01:31 PM

28

@drlucky wrote:

. besides i find it pretty hard to believe that this many people are actually bothered by this issue since there were extremely few posts regarding the issue with most all people never noticing it until recently when it was said that firmware was not being worked on this second. 

 

Say what?  One of the pitch topics started last year is 18 pages long.  The subject quieted down after Sansa responded that they had a fix which would come in a future firmware update.  

 In light of that it makes a lot of sense that the subject is flaring up on a hint that there won’t be any update.

29

if you notice there are only about 8 to 10 unique posters in that thread that are bothered by the issue. just because a thread is long does not mean there are many people that see it is an issue. 

31

-Warrior1986

Thank you for your well written post!!

It expresses my feelings on the subject as well.

In this day of internet forums, a company can’t hide it’s products defects.

Keep up the good work and don’t let the Sansa apologists discourage you.

Quitters never win. Post links to this everywhere.

Never give up!

32

The SanDisk pitch problem now is an entry in Wikipedia (no I did not put it there).

Music Pitch Bug

Sansa Fuze, Sansa Clip and Sansa Clip+ models suffer from a firmware bug causing audio playback of audio files with 44.1kHz sampling rate to be too slow, resulting in audio being off pitch. A workaround is resampling the audio files to 48kHz, at which the bug becomes barely noticeable.[8] This bug will be fixed for Sansa Fuze and Sansa Clip+ players, but Sandisk stated that they don’t plan to fix the bug in Sansa Clip players.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SanDisk_Sansa#Music_Pitch_Bug

The item says that Sandisk says that it does not intend to fix it with the Clip.  From what I read here that’s wrong (Sandisk says that it does not know if it will) but it is embarrassing to read that in Wikipedia, and that will have to lead to lower Sandisk sales whatever the product.  Is that what Sansa really wants?  I do not get it.

Oh, and I am enjoying my Clip.  I just would like Sandisk to improve it, when that is possible and easy to do with the Clip+ imrproements and music fix.  Buying a brand new Clip+ should not be the only choice.

Message Edited by sansaconcerns on 09-17-2009 02:03 PM

33

@sansaconcerns wrote:

The SanDisk pitch problem now is an entry in Wikipedia (no I did not put it there).

 

Music Pitch Bug

Sansa Fuze, Sansa Clip and Sansa Clip+ models suffer from a firmware bug causing audio playback of audio files with 44.1kHz sampling rate to be too slow, resulting in audio being off pitch. A workaround is resampling the audio files to 48kHz, at which the bug becomes barely noticeable.[8] This bug will be fixed for Sansa Fuze and Sansa Clip+ players, but Sandisk stated that they don’t plan to fix the bug in Sansa Clip players.[9]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SanDisk_Sansa#Music_Pitch_Bug

 

The item says that Sandisk says that it does not intend to fix it with the Clip.  From what I read here that’s wrong (Sandisk says that it does not know if it will) but it is embarrassing to read that in Wikipedia, and that will have to lead to lower Sandisk sales whatever the product.  Is that what Sansa really wants?  I do not get it.

 

Oh, and I am enjoying my Clip.  I just would like Sandisk to improve it, when that is possible and easy to do with the Clip+ imrproements and music fix.  Buying a brand new Clip+ should not be the only choice.

Message Edited by sansaconcerns on 09-17-2009 02:03 PM

Sansa doesn’t get the best press in customer surveys against competitors either; check out the latest issue of PC Magazine (Sept. 15).  They were dead last in most every category surveyed, same as PC World’s survey published in Jan. of this year.  This pitch bug isn’t helping their cause.

35

tnmats wrote:

Most of us aren’t asking for new features, just fix the slow-playing issue that was audible while the unit was in production.  Asking for basic functionality fixes is not unreasonable.  I don’t consider it a great product if it can’t get it’s basic “mission” right.

Really?

I want gapless!

I want folder navigation!

I want what the new Clip+ has!

A little bit more than just basic functionality, I’d say.

Message Edited by Tapeworm on 09-17-2009 09:56 PM

36

tnmats wrote:

Most of us aren’t asking for new features, just fix the slow-playing issue that was audible while the unit was in production.  Asking for basic functionality fixes is not unreasonable.  I don’t consider it a great product if it can’t get it’s basic “mission” right.

Really?

I want gapless!

I want folder navigation!

I want ReplayGain capability!

I want current/next track info!

I want increased song title, etc. scroll speed!

I want what the new Clip+ has!

A little bit more than just basic functionality, I’d say.

38

@miikerman wrote:
Well, I personally will cop to that   :wink: , seeing that the Clip and Clip+ seem to share a common firmware base, and presumably it would not be too difficult to engraft the Clip+ firmware improvements into the Clip firmware.  (If we were talking about an unrelated player, I’d understand otherwise.)  Heck, the Clip still is being actively sold.  I just don’t get why people are resistant to ask SanDisk to provide further support to the Clip for this, if it is possible- -the Clip is far from obsolete.

Obsolete = No longer in production

39

Actually it means “no longer produced or used”.  It may not be produced but it’s pretty clear it is being used.

41

dave61430 wrote:If these things bother people like warrior guy and others, buy something else, but it’s somewhat presumptious to be telling the rest of us what we should be doing. Post your concerns then move on.

Wow, great moments in hypocrisy there, friend.

First, you tell other people what to do – then, you slide into telling them they’re"somewhat presumptious"
 for telling othes what to do – and, you wrap by once again telling them what to do.

Swift move, Ace.

42

tnmats wrote:

 

Most of us aren’t asking for new features, just fix the slow-playing issue that was audible while the unit was in production.  Asking for basic functionality fixes is not unreasonable.  I don’t consider it a great product if it can’t get it’s basic “mission” right.

I’m not making excuses for Sansa.  BUT !!!

Personally I hope that if they already fixed the issue with the Fuze, they will make if for the CLIP- as well.

However, I forget the wonderful artical that dove into exactly how far off the pitch is…  1 cent for 44.1K recordings for mp3’s.?   Some small amount.    Most ppl who own a clip are fat and happy and can’t even hear it.    Bet my entire family and friends can’t.  But mentally if i tell them thier players ■■■■ and the pitch is off,  2 or 3 of them will feel differnetly about thier Clip.  >.<

I loved the sound quality of the Clip when I bought it, it seemed like perfection, till i started to read this forum.   THANKS ALOT GUYS.  Grumbles…  lol.   I do think an Engineer didn’t do his homework when they programmed/tested 44.1k sampled playback…

BUT!!!  Heres what I’m thinking about the accuracy of an mp3 portable device and wonders how it relates to the “Basic Mission” you talk of…

What is the acceptable percent error for pitch?   1 cent?   .5 cents?   0.00001 cents?   If you test every product on the market you are going to see some measureable percent errors that are acceptable.   There is probably an Engineering spec for such tolorances.   For a sub 100 dollar mp3 player it is doughtful if you will get a studio or lab quality system.  Instead you get a device with acceptable deviations from perfection.  

Is the pitch problem an acceptable percent?    I’m going to say No…    I do believe they can fix it to be unperceiveable by the people with perfect pitch (I think they must all have ears shaped like bats or wolfs or something un-natural…)…    Do I expect them to fix it?    Not really,  I’m sure this issue is down at the very bottom of the priority list,  our products are not where they will be focusing time and money.

Keep After them to fix it.    I’d like the fix too, just because people say my sansa Clip isn’t perfect.

But I’m not going to bang the drum for someting I probably can’t even hear in a real world listening environment.

Basic Mission? or acceptable deviation?    Regardless   I believe the CLIP is still one of the best sounding MP3 players on the market.

Niko

43

@niko_sama wrote:

@tnmats wrote:

 

Most of us aren’t asking for new features, just fix the slow-playing issue that was audible while the unit was in production.  Asking for basic functionality fixes is not unreasonable.  I don’t consider it a great product if it can’t get it’s basic “mission” right.

I’m not making excuses for Sansa.  BUT !!!

 

Personally I hope that if they already fixed the issue with the Fuze, they will make if for the CLIP- as well.

 

However, I forget the wonderful artical that dove into exactly how far off the pitch is…  1 cent for 44.1K recordings for mp3’s.?   Some small amount.    Most ppl who own a clip are fat and happy and can’t even hear it.    Bet my entire family and friends can’t.  But mentally if i tell them thier players ■■■■ and the pitch is off,  2 or 3 of them will feel differnetly about thier Clip.  >.<

 

I loved the sound quality of the Clip when I bought it, it seemed like perfection, till i started to read this forum.   THANKS ALOT GUYS.  Grumbles…  lol.   I do think an Engineer didn’t do his homework when they programmed/tested 44.1k sampled playback…

 

BUT!!!  Heres what I’m thinking about the accuracy of an mp3 portable device and wonders how it relates to the “Basic Mission” you talk of…

 

What is the acceptable percent error for pitch?   1 cent?   .5 cents?   0.00001 cents?   If you test every product on the market you are going to see some measureable percent errors that are acceptable.   There is probably an Engineering spec for such tolorances.   For a sub 100 dollar mp3 player it is doughtful if you will get a studio or lab quality system.  Instead you get a device with acceptable deviations from perfection.  

 

Is the pitch problem an acceptable percent?    I’m going to say No…    I do believe they can fix it to be unperceiveable by the people with perfect pitch (I think they must all have ears shaped like bats or wolfs or something un-natural…)…    Do I expect them to fix it?    Not really,  I’m sure this issue is down at the very bottom of the priority list,  our products are not where they will be focusing time and money.

 

Keep After them to fix it.    I’d like the fix too, just because people say my sansa Clip isn’t perfect.

 

But I’m not going to bang the drum for someting I probably can’t even hear in a real world listening environment.

 

Basic Mission? or acceptable deviation?    Regardless   I believe the CLIP is still one of the best sounding MP3 players on the market.

 

Niko

 

 

Humans can detect a 0.3% pitch error, so 1% is 3x the threshold.  I design ICs for a living, and that’s a huge error in any digital circuit; either the oscillator is off (unlikely as 48kHz doesn’t have the issue) or a coding error in the MPU’s clock divide-down code.  I’d never be allowed to release a circuit that had that kind of accuracy errors if the oscillator didn’t have such wide tolerances.  I can understand the analog circuits not having ruler flat frequency response for this price point, but basic speed accuracy within 0.1% should be a given with today’s technology.  For crying out loud a cheap $2 watch can do that.

And other makers don’t have this problem.  When you’re the one with the problem and your competitors don’t, you don’t have best in class.  I liken this to a watch that runs fast or slow by several minutes a day while your competitors can keep time within less than 1 sec. a day.  Let’s say your watch runs fast/slow 4 min./day.  Would you accept that?  That’s a 0.3% error.  Few if any would take a watch that is that far off daily. Cheap mechanical watches can even do better than that, a quartz watch is vastly better than that, even the cheapest ones you can find.

A basic function of any music playback medium includes speed accuracy.  Any turntable can run 33 1/3 RPM within less than 0.1% tolerance, even the cheap ones.  If the el cheapo MP3 player I got for free years with some office supplies I bought can keep proper time (less than 0.05% accuracy; I checked it with an oscilloscope), then I figure a “better” player like the Clip can do something comparable.

44

@niko_sama wrote:

However, I forget the wonderful artical that dove into exactly how far off the pitch is…  1 cent for 44.1K recordings for mp3’s.? 

 

[…]

 

   I believe the CLIP is still one of the best sounding MP3 players on the market.

 

Niko

 

 

The pitch is off by between 19 and 20 cents, a value arrived at independently by Davek and myself, using very different methods (see http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/board/message?board.id=clip&view=by_date_ascending&message.id=21308#M21308). This is well above the human perception threshold (5 cents). While it may be below what an untrained ear perceives, it is readily noticed by a trained musician or a dedicated music lover.

As to “best sounding”, what I didn’t include in the little write-up referred to above is that I also compared the Clip to 4 el-cheapo players  – aRoc 1GB, Camnex 1GB, Coby 2GB, Nextar 2GB. These are probably sold under different brand names, depending on retailer and market (eg, Camnex is sold by Wal-Mart in Canada), and retail for one fifth to one quarter of the price of a Sansa Clip or less. *All* four of them exhibit length variations of less than 0.1%, that is, pitch variations of LESS than 1 cent.

46

@gwk1967 wrote:
What is a “cent”? The only meaning I know for that word is 1/100th of a dollar ($0.01).

I was wondering the same thing.:dizzy_face:

48

@miikerman wrote:

Per Wikipedia:

 

1200 cents are equal to one octave …

 

 

Or for those thinking in terms of a cent being a hundredth of something, that would make 100 cents equal to a semitone, or the difference between 2 adjacent keys on a piano. 

49

Just wanted to update this thread with further information that should beyond convince anyone who reads it to avoid Sansa, and Sandisk in general, at all costs.  This was posted in the massive pitch bug thread in the Clip+ forum.  http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/board/message?board.id=clipplus&thread.id=40&view=by\_date\_ascending&page=12

@slotmonsta wrote:

Over the last few days there have been several meetings with Engineering, Marketing, and Product Management regarding the pitch issue some users have seen. Please see below a statement regarding the decision that was reached as a result of these meetings.

 

At SanDisk, our goal with our Sansa MP3 product line is to provide products which deliver a quality consumer experience at price points which are accessible to the majority of the population.  Our “value” positioning has served us well historically, although we acknowledge that occasionally our products do not live up to some users’ expectations.  The issues raised on this Forum regarding sound fidelity are important to us however due to trade-off decisions that were made in engineering these products to deliver superior consumer value at what we believe are extremely attractive price points, our sound fidelity isn’t perfect.  We have re-evaluated the possibility of reducing the pitch variation and due to the engineering trade-offs the decision was made to stay with the current design. Very few listeners, however, have noticed or complained about it as an issue in actual practice.  For those who can detect sound differences with their naked ears during actual use and not via frequency analysis, our products may not be the best choice for them.

 

Forum Admin

slotmonsta 

50

Well, now it all makes Cents to me!

So, if I have twelve dollars in my wallet and some asks how much money I’ve got, I tell them:

I have 1200 cents. Oh wait, I have one octave. Correction, I have twelve semitones. Oops, sorry, I have 24 consecutive piano keys.

Just my 1/600th of an octave’s worth - LOL!!!