Shuffle feature problem - does not play all songs

Hi,

I have noticed for a long time some songs  are never played when I use ‘play all’ (I’ve seen a few discussions on this in the forum, none with conclusions) . Frustated, I tried to see what is not played and noticed that only songs with low id (< ~2000) are played:

Have 2985 songs on my fuze.

Switched to ‘play all’ and clicked ‘next’ for ~10 minutes, about 300 clicks. I have seen a few songs from every hundred from 1 to 2000, (even including song 1/2985), but not a single song with id higher that 2044!! In 300 clicks I would expect that about a 100, a third of them, would be with id higher that 2000. Playing manually songs with high id works.

(Being a programmer, I think that no matter how long I’ll try I’ll never see a song with id higher than 2048, but that is just a wild guess … :stuck_out_tongue: )

Using latest firmware (1.01.22P) . Shuffle is used with repeat on.

Currently this partial shuffle, combined with the problems in handling large playlists (to use as a workaround), is my biggest problem with the fuze.

(English is not a native language, so ignore please any grammar mistakes.)

Message Edited by marvin on 03-02-2009 02:12 AM

@marvin wrote:

Hi,

 

I have noticed for a long time some songs  are never played when I use ‘play all’ (I’ve seen a few discussions on this in the forum, none with conclusions) . Frustated, I tried to see what is not played and noticed that only songs with low id (< ~2000) are played:

 

Have 2985 songs on my fuze.

Switched to ‘play all’ and clicked ‘next’ for ~10 minutes, about 300 clicks. I have seen a few songs from every hundred from 1 to 2000, (even including song 1/2985), but not a single song with id higher that 2044!! In 300 clicks I would expect that about a 100, a third of them, would be with id higher that 2000. Playing manually songs with high id works.

 

(Being a programmer, I think that no matter how long I’ll try I’ll never see a song with id higher than 2048, but that is just a wild guess … :stuck_out_tongue: )

 

Using latest firmware (1.01.22P) . Shuffle is used with repeat on.

 

Currently this partial shuffle, combined with the problems in handling large playlists (to use as a workaround), is my biggest problem with the fuze.

 

(English is not a native language, so ignore please any grammar mistakes.)

 

 

Message Edited by marvin on 03-02-2009 02:12 AM

Have you tried it with repeat off? That would seem the obvious solution, because then in theory it would have to play every song before it repeated any of them :wink:

@marvin_martian wrote:

Have you tried it with repeat off? That would seem the obvious solution, because then in theory it would have to play every song before it repeated any of them :wink:

Yup, just did 150 clicks with repeat off, not a single song with id higher than 2000 (got to 2044 max again this time).

[I’m not going to do 2000 clicks to see if I ever get to the end, my finger is tired already :-)]

@marvin wrote:

 


@marvin_martian wrote:

Have you tried it with repeat off? That would seem the obvious solution, because then in theory it would have to play every song before it repeated any of them :wink:


 

 

 

Yup, just did 150 clicks with repeat off, not a single song with id higher than 2000 (got to 2044 max again this time).

[I’m not going to do 2000 clicks to see if I ever get to the end, my finger is tired already :-)]

 

 

 

Interesting. I have 2,288 songs on mine, but I don’t shuffle it. I go album by album with it, and shuffle my Clip on the go (1,475 songs). How often do you sync it? Whenever you add/remove content, the database is refreshed, and the shuffle would forget how many had last played…and would start over. 

You have nearly 3000 songs on your fuze. The Track limit right now is 4000. This being said the probability that in 300 track changes you would see 1/3 of those form number greater than 2000 is not as high as you would think. You know how to right a shuffle algorithm? If your machine or player or whatever, has to load a song to play it takes a ton more power and memory to load song #3000 if you are playing song 1. It has been confirmed that the shuffle algorithm, is as random as possible based on the constraints the programmers have to deal with. I can go thru a day in shuffle and hear every one of my 750 songs. It may just be you.

Message Edited by Conversionbox on 03-01-2009 07:40 PM

We may indeed have a bug/problem.

I have 2,557 songs on my 8gb + 4gb uSD Fuze (1.01.22a). Set to ‘Play all + shuffle + repeat off’ and clicking ‘Next’ approximately 100 times I only had 3 songs over 2,000 and none over 2038. I can understand an imbalance in a relatively small sample, but zero selections higher than 2,038 when probability says there should be +/-20 selections (and certainly some non-trivial number higher than zero) is not right.

If I might, can I ask others who have more than 2K songs to take a few moments and do this test and report your findings. Thanks.

@robisan wrote:

We may indeed have a bug/problem.

 

I have 2,557 songs on my 8gb + 4gb uSD Fuze (1.01.22a). Set to ‘Play all + shuffle + repeat off’ and clicking ‘Next’ approximately 100 times I only had 3 songs over 2,000 and none over 2038. I can understand an imbalance in a relatively small sample, but zero selections higher than 2,038 when probability says there should be +/-20 selections (and certainly some non-trivial number higher than zero) is not right.

 

If I might, can I ask others who have more than 2K songs to take a few moments and do this test and report your findings. Thanks.

Its not a bug. But rather its a limitation. Sansafix, the only developer on here has said that the shuffle is random. What that means to me is that its as random as it can be. Nothing can be done at this point. Its something we are just gonna have to deal with.

@marvin wrote:

Hi,

 

(Being a programmer, I think that no matter how long I’ll try I’ll never see a song with id higher than 2048, but that is just a wild guess … :stuck_out_tongue: )

I could be wrong, but didn’t the Fuze originally only allow up to 2000 songs and then in a firmware upgrade it got increased to 4000?

If that is try, then very likely the Sansa programmer(s) may have accidently forgotten to also alter the code for random play to look beyond the original 2K (2048) limit.

Or, it’s also possible that they may have not have allocated enough bits to allow a larger number (or the hardware may not be able to handle it the way the code is written).

I’d suggest contacting Sandisk Sansa directly to find out if they know or are aware of such a limitation. It’s real easy for a programmer to forget that he also needs change something in a different section of code when he makes a change to some other part of the code.

@miltst wrote:


@marvin wrote:

Hi,

 

(Being a programmer, I think that no matter how long I’ll try I’ll never see a song with id higher than 2048, but that is just a wild guess … :stuck_out_tongue: )


 

I could be wrong, but didn’t the Fuze originally only allow up to 2000 songs and then in a firmware upgrade it got increased to 4000?

 

If that is try, then very likely the Sansa programmer(s) may have accidently forgotten to also alter the code for random play to look beyond the original 2K (2048) limit.

 

Or, it’s also possible that they may have not have allocated enough bits to allow a larger number (or the hardware may not be able to handle it the way the code is written).

 

I’d suggest contacting Sandisk Sansa directly to find out if they know or are aware of such a limitation. It’s real easy for a programmer to forget that he also needs change something in a different section of code when he makes a change to some other part of the code.

 

 

Good Thought! Never Even occoured to me. I would bet you are right.

@conversionbox wrote:


@robisan wrote:

We may indeed have a bug/problem.

 

I have 2,557 songs on my 8gb + 4gb uSD Fuze (1.01.22a). Set to ‘Play all + shuffle + repeat off’ and clicking ‘Next’ approximately 100 times I only had 3 songs over 2,000 and none over 2038. I can understand an imbalance in a relatively small sample, but zero selections higher than 2,038 when probability says there should be +/-20 selections (and certainly some non-trivial number higher than zero) is not right.

 

If I might, can I ask others who have more than 2K songs to take a few moments and do this test and report your findings. Thanks.


Its not a bug. But rather its a limitation. Sansafix, the only developer on here has said that the shuffle is random. What that means to me is that its as random as it can be. Nothing can be done at this point. Its something we are just gonna have to deal with.

Bug/problem/limitation – whatever semantics you wish – this is an issue that Sansafix and the developers/programmers need to address. The issue of just how random is “random” is entirely different from the feature entirely omitting any file above 2,048, which really hasn’t been addressed at all. As miltst has suggested, this is likely a solvable problem. However, as someone who uses shuffle 80+% of the time, I would be dissatisfied with a “nothing can be done … we are just gonna have to deal with (it)” response.

I don’t think Conversionbox was trying to say that it was an un-curable problem due to hardware. What I think he was only talking about the the percentage of different files playing as being as random as the programmers could make it. In fact, I believe one of that last firmware upgrades improved the randomness. Unfortunately, somewhere along the line it looks like something got missed so that it may not be even trying to go beyond the older 2000 limit.

If they did screw up in the programming… that’s why I suggested contacting them directly (either phone or e-mail) because I’m sure they would like to know so that they can correct it in an upcoming firmware upgrade.

Remember, this is basically just a user forum were people try to help people. The Sansa people themselves only stop in and look around once in a while. So they do not always notice some things that get posted in the forum.

@microsansa wrote:

Cool Dog… or rather for our American Idol fan Cool Dawg…

@robisan wrote:


@conversionbox wrote:


@robisan wrote:

We may indeed have a bug/problem.

 

I have 2,557 songs on my 8gb + 4gb uSD Fuze (1.01.22a). Set to ‘Play all + shuffle + repeat off’ and clicking ‘Next’ approximately 100 times I only had 3 songs over 2,000 and none over 2038. I can understand an imbalance in a relatively small sample, but zero selections higher than 2,038 when probability says there should be +/-20 selections (and certainly some non-trivial number higher than zero) is not right.

 

If I might, can I ask others who have more than 2K songs to take a few moments and do this test and report your findings. Thanks.


Its not a bug. But rather its a limitation. Sansafix, the only developer on here has said that the shuffle is random. What that means to me is that its as random as it can be. Nothing can be done at this point. Its something we are just gonna have to deal with.


Bug/problem/limitation – whatever semantics you wish – this is an issue that Sansafix and the developers/programmers need to address. The issue of just how random is “random” is entirely different from the feature entirely omitting any file above 2,048, which really hasn’t been addressed at all. As miltst has suggested, this is likely a solvable problem. However, as someone who uses shuffle 80+% of the time, I would be dissatisfied with a “nothing can be done … we are just gonna have to deal with (it)” response.

I use shuffle on my fuze 100% of the time and I never disagreed with you;It bugs me that I can hear the same song 3 times in an hour, but  not hear some songs for days. All I am trying to say is that this has been discussed before and we will have to deal until we get a fix. At this point there is nothing that can be done, we have to wait until there is a new firmware. I would also encourage you to go to the Product feature suggestion board and post this request, that way it gets double coverage.

The current shuffle only handles 2K songs which is fixed in the next release due this month.  it will handle up to the limit of 8K songs.

Yea! Thanks.

Hi guys.

Sorry to come late to the party, but I have been noticing something weird with shuffle too.

It is my experience that on a FLAC album (not MP3), when choosing ‘shuffle’ mode, the player stops after playing the final track of the album. To be clear, say if an album has 16 tracks it will stop playing after track 16, not after the 16th track in the shuffle order. 

Is there anyone else who noticed this, or am I seeing things? I am using firmware V01.01.22F.

-L.

@7o9 wrote:

Hi guys.

 

Sorry to come late to the party, but I have been noticing something weird with shuffle too.

 

It is my experience that on a FLAC album (not MP3), when choosing ‘shuffle’ mode, the player stops after playing the final track of the album. To be clear, say if an album has 16 tracks it will stop playing after track 16, not after the 16th track in the shuffle order. 

 

Is there anyone else who noticed this, or am I seeing things? I am using firmware V01.01.22F.

 

-L.

Do you have repeat on? That could solve your problem.

I suppose i could turn repeat on, but it should be possible to shuffle through all songs of a single FLAC album once too imo.