Im thinkin about a change...

SanDisk MP3 players Sansa® Fuze™
1

I am seriously thinkin about a change from good old standard vanilla mp3 files to the remarkably similar but slightly better vorbis format. Before I do this I want to confirm/ask a few things. First is it true that I can convert to vorbis at a lower bitrate  (giving me smaller files) and get a very similar similar sound quality (I dont mind if its not quite as good but Its gota be close). If this is true what rate should I use(most of my mp3s are at 256)? Secondly if I install the plugin WMP will handle Vorbis format correct, and what plugin would you who use vorbis and WMP recommed? Third, What is a good conversion program? Fourth, If I convert will my tags go with it? Finally and this is a big one… Is there a way (Possibly a Dos code) that I can plug my Fuze in to my computer and get a print off of the file names that are saved on the fuze (I have over 600 tracks on it [including SD card] and going thru writing it down would take a month)?

Thanks Guys!

2

I have no idea about adding Vorbis capability to WMP, but MediaMonkey is compatible with it even in the free version…both for playback and ripping. I don’t know if it is the most recent Vorbis encoder though. I don’t know about the conversion, but I was told that ripping with Vorbis your files could be way smaller to be equal to MP3…like 160=320MP3. I don’t know how accurate that is though…I tried comparing once but I couldn’t be sure if I really heard a difference or if it was placebo. But I don’t have audiophile earphones or the range of hearing that I used to. Beyond that, I will let the more knowledgable speak on the Vorbis issue…I’ll be reading though.

3

@conversionbox wrote:

I am seriously thinkin about a change from good old standard vanilla mp3 files to the remarkably similar but slightly better vorbis format. Before I do this I want to confirm/ask a few things. First is it true that I can convert to vorbis at a lower bitrate  (giving me smaller files) and get a very similar similar sound quality (I dont mind if its not quite as good but Its gota be close). If this is true what rate should I use(most of my mp3s are at 256)? Secondly if I install the plugin WMP will handle Vorbis format correct, and what plugin would you who use vorbis and WMP recommed? Third, What is a good conversion program? Fourth, If I convert will my tags go with it? Finally and this is a big one… Is there a way (Possibly a Dos code) that I can plug my Fuze in to my computer and get a print off of the file names that are saved on the fuze (I have over 600 tracks on it [including SD card] and going thru writing it down would take a month)?

 

Thanks Guys!

I’ll take issue with the statement that ogg vorbis is only “slightly better” than mp3…  Ogg Vorbis is significantly better, based on all the comprehensive tests I’ve done on the format.  Asking what bit rate to do your encoding is like asking “what flavor of ice cream do you like?”… Everyone has their own preference.  I would suggest to take a high quality, well known piece of music to you and play around with some various bit rates.  Your ears will tell you what is appropriate for your ears and tastes.

The same can be said with encoders.  What I like, you may not.  I personally like the little “drag and drop” encoder that listed in my signature.  At first it looks like a joke, but don’t let the tiny little desktop icon fool you… it is a very robust encoder/decoder.

Any tool or plugin you could possibly think of is located at The Offical Ogg Vorbis Website

I have to routinely capture screen shots for my long distance clients and if you want an easy way of just listing the content on the fuze; plug it in and display the contents on the screen and use a screen capture utility such as Snagit to either save it to disc or route it to the printer.

Keep in mind that everyone uses their computer and software differently.  I am not suggesting that what I use for my ogg vorbis needs will be right for you.  This is just a starting point.  There is also a wealth of information on the web concerning the format.

4

@conversionbox wrote:

I am seriously thinkin about a change from good old standard vanilla mp3 files to the remarkably similar but slightly better vorbis format. Before I do this I want to confirm/ask a few things. First is it true that I can convert to vorbis at a lower bitrate  (giving me smaller files) and get a very similar similar sound quality (I dont mind if its not quite as good but Its gota be close). If this is true what rate should I use(most of my mp3s are at 256)? Secondly if I install the plugin WMP will handle Vorbis format correct, and what plugin would you who use vorbis and WMP recommed? Third, What is a good conversion program? Fourth, If I convert will my tags go with it? Finally and this is a big one… Is there a way (Possibly a Dos code) that I can plug my Fuze in to my computer and get a print off of the file names that are saved on the fuze (I have over 600 tracks on it [including SD card] and going thru writing it down would take a month)?

 

Thanks Guys!

Audio codec tests are subjective, based on the codec, bitrate or quality setting, type of music used.     I too think ogg can achieve similar quality at lower bitrates than mp3 for the type of music I listen.   Search the net and check, there is always a subjective test report to be read.  With higher capacity memory cards it might be better staying with the original file, than re-encoding it with another codec therefore losing some quality.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codec_listening_test

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=36465

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=36465

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=best+audio+format

You may want to take a song and re-encode it into ogg format at different bit rates and compare it yourself and then compare file sizes.   It takes time but you will be able to find the quality  vs file size that best suits your needs.  

For myself, I use lame codec Variable bit rate V2 - setting.    VBR files are smaller, and they sound fine for my listening needs.

Conversion programs I like  are  foobar2000 (free)  and dbpoweramp music convert (my fav/ not free).

http://www.foobar2000.org/

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/download.htm

Alternative places to find codecs:

http://www.free-codecs.com/Audio_Codecs.htm

 http://www.rarewares.org/

I like MediaMonkey and use it to catalog my music collection. 

http://www.mediamonkey.com/

My recommendation might be,  spend less time re-encoding, and buy a larger memory card, and enjoy the music :slight_smile:

5

I must add that I personally don’t trust any subjective listening test, telling me what format should sound best.  I conducted my tests by taking the human element out of it.  I compared the spectrogram waveforms of each musical format… Comparing ogg vorbis and mp3 (using Lame) against the original waves.

In every instance, ogg vorbis significantly had more musical information present in the spectogram than mp3.  As been previously mentioned, if space is a consideration, ogg vorbis lets you encode at a smaller bit rate yet still retaining it’s musical integrity.  Again, your ears will tell you at what point the files lose their musicality.

6

LOL,  I tried to resist posting this,

I like what your doing by comparing the difference between the lossy codec reproduction back to the original waveform and producing some quality indicator mathematically.    Although I love Analysis and statistics with programs like Matlab.  ^_^   Lossy encoding for human hearing isn’t linear across the spectrum.   Codecs target a phychoacousic model, because human hearing is non linear.    I am not saying Vorbis ogg format  isn’t capable or your test of quality is not accurate.   But i might back up it up with subjective testing.   One needs to listen to the end result to verify the math :) 

7

@niko_sama wrote:

LOL,  I tried to resist posting this,

 

I like what your doing by comparing the difference between the lossy codec reproduction back to the original waveform and producing some quality indicator mathematically.    Although I love Analysis and statistics with programs like Matlab.  ^_^   Lossy encoding for human hearing isn’t linear across the spectrum.   Codecs target a phychoacousic model, because human hearing is non linear.    I am not saying Vorbis ogg format  isn’t capable or your test of quality is not accurate.   But i might back up it up with subjective testing.   One needs to listen to the end result to verify the math :) 

 

 

You can certainly believe what you want; but my analysis has nothing to do with math, but the amount of information that each lossy codec removes.  Of course I am over simplifying my methods to be digested by the masses.  I am quite confident that my methods are accurate… and yes, subjective listening tests (mine) have backed that up.

8

You can certainly believe what you want; but my analysis has nothing to do with math, but the amount of information that each lossy codec removes.  Of course I am over simplifying my methods to be digested by the masses.  I am quite confident that my methods are accurate… and yes, subjective listening tests (mine) have backed that up.

XD  >.<   Forgive me for thinking your Analysis had something to do with math :P   

Peace :slight_smile:

to the original poster:  Ogg is a good format.  Re-encoding from mp3’s into ogg, may take time, and produce a file with less quality (Unless you go back to a higher quality source), for a savings in file size.    I’d vote for keeping your original source files (archive them), and then decide if the file size savings is worth the effort.    Not just because the codec may be better.  Reencoding from one lossy format to another, will most likely lead to more loss in quality for a file savings that might not be significant.   That choice is one you have to make for yourself based on your needs.

9

The best way to save space with Ogg (particularly if your MP3s are constant 256kbps) is to use variable bitrate (you’d have been able to get equal quality and save space with VBR MP3 as well). You can pick a quality level between 1 and 9. I used level 4, and it comes out to about 160kbps. I think there might be a slight loss in quality with that, so you might want to start with level 5 if you’re worried about quality - it’ll still be a significant size gain.

dbPowerAmp is a good free program for converting.

As far as listing directories, this is one of those things that is easy with MSC mode, and I’m not even sure its possible with MTP. You can either use a command-line and simply enter dir /b /s *.mp3 >> filelist.txt or get a program like this.

10

Transcoding from one lossy encoder to another is sure to lose some quality.  If you want the same or similar quality in less space, then start fresh from the original CD (or lossless file).  I will sometimes transcode a file from a high rate to low (say, 192 to 64) to save a lot of space, but don’t expect to get equal results.

Most people who care about such things think the best ogg/vorbis encoder is not the official release, but the aoTuv (whatever version is most up to date).

Available, along with the original at rarewares.org.

11

@bdb wrote:

The best way to save space with Ogg (particularly if your MP3s are constant 256kbps) is to use variable bitrate (you’d have been able to get equal quality and save space with VBR MP3 as well). You can pick a quality level between 1 and 9. I used level 4, and it comes out to about 160kbps. I think there might be a slight loss in quality with that, so you might want to start with level 5 if you’re worried about quality - it’ll still be a significant size gain.

 

dbPowerAmp is a good free program for converting.

 

As far as listing directories, this is one of those things that is easy with MSC mode, and I’m not even sure its possible with MTP. You can either use a command-line and simply enter dir /b /s *.mp3 >> filelist.txt or get a program like this.

I marked this as the solution but GB I am gonna test out some of my better quality files, and try some different rates.  BDB I love Poweramp. I have used it at work in the past, and were I not already pretty deep into WMP I would use poweramp for everything. and Donp I know there will be a slight quality loss but I am as concerned with file size, as I am quality, so if quality is close and the size is smaller I am :) 

Do any of you guys have the WMP plugin installed for Vorbis? I read the suggestions from Microsoft, but that doesnt help much, so what do you use if you have the plugin?

12

:smiley:

Conversionbox wrote:

Is there a way (Possibly a Dos code) that I can plug my Fuze in to my computer and get a print off of the file names that are saved on the fuze (I have over 600 tracks on it [including SD card] and going thru writing it down would take a month)?

 

Believe it or not, MP3Tag will create a handsome & useful list for you. I use it to make back-up lists for the music on my various players and cards. In case of catestrophic melt-down, I could use them to re-rip from CD’s and re-build assuring the same music goes back on the same player and/or card as before.

The thanks should really go to Neutron_bob for discovering this little-known ‘nugget’ buried in in plain site in MP3Tag. I had used this program for months and never noticed it.

Open up your directory where the music is (player, card, etc.). Sort it to your liking. I use Artist > Album > Track #. Go to File > Export… You’ll get a box with several list options. I use the basic ‘html_standard’. It has alternating grey bars making the list easier to read. There are also custom list formats people have written available at the MP3Tag site forums. It’s kinda like the custom themes that people write to change the Rockbox interface. They can get pretty elaborate with pop-up album art, track info, etc. but I haven’t spent the time to figure out how to use them.

After the list is exported, you can simply save it to your hard drive.

13

Conversionbox wrote:

Is there a way (Possibly a Dos code) that I can plug my Fuze in to my computer and get a print off of the file names that are saved on the fuze (I have over 600 tracks on it [including SD card] and going thru writing it down would take a month)?

Believe it or not, MP3Tag will create a handsome & useful list for you. I use it to make back-up lists for the music on my various players and cards. In case of catestrophic melt-down, I could use them to re-rip from CD’s and re-build assuring the same music goes back on the same player and/or card as before.

The thanks should really go to Neutron_bob for discovering this little-known ‘nugget’ buried in in plain site in MP3Tag. I had used this program for months and never noticed it.

Open up your directory where the music is (player, card, etc.). Sort it to your liking. I use Artist > Album > Track #. Go to File > Export… You’ll get a box with several list options. I use the basic ‘html_standard’. It has alternating grey bars making the list easier to read. There are also custom list formats people have written available at the MP3Tag site forums. It’s kinda like the custom themes that people write to change the Rockbox interface. They can get pretty elaborate with pop-up album art, track info, etc. but I haven’t spent the time to figure out how to use them.

After the list is exported, you can simply save it to your hard drive. :smiley:

14

@tapeworm wrote:

@conversionbox wrote:

Is there a way (Possibly a Dos code) that I can plug my Fuze in to my computer and get a print off of the file names that are saved on the fuze (I have over 600 tracks on it [including SD card] and going thru writing it down would take a month)?

 

Believe it or not, MP3Tag will create a handsome & useful list for you. I use it to make back-up lists for the music on my various players and cards. In case of catestrophic melt-down, I could use them to re-rip from CD’s and re-build assuring the same music goes back on the same player and/or card as before.

 

The thanks should really go to Neutron_bob for discovering this little-known ‘nugget’ buried in in plain site in MP3Tag. I had used this program for months and never noticed it.

 

Open up your directory where the music is (player, card, etc.). Sort it to your liking. I use Artist > Album > Track #. Go to File > Export… You’ll get a box with several list options. I use the basic ‘html_standard’. It has alternating grey bars making the list easier to read. There are also custom list formats people have written available at the MP3Tag site forums. It’s kinda like the custom themes that people write to change the Rockbox interface. They can get pretty elaborate with pop-up album art, track info, etc. but I haven’t spent the time to figure out how to use them.

 

After the list is exported, you can simply save it to your hard drive. :smiley:

Hey Tape and Bob, Lemme guess this wont woek with MTP mode will it? I try and it says the file name is not valid or some such thing. 

Aslo hey anybody have you tried to convert a file with Media Monkey? Any opinions?

15

I’ve converted podcasts in m4a to both Vorbis and WMA. The key is you have to experiment with the settings, and to do that you want to choose the convert to new location so as not to affect the source file. Give it a try with a few songs you’re very familiar with, and figure out what file size works for you. I’ve only converted a few albums with it…3 or 4 albums that were in m4a, I converted so that they were Sansa compatible. But since I’d never heard them, I couldn’t judge how well they converted compared to the original. The Vorbis setting thing is cool…you choose your quality level, and it shows you roughly what bitrate it would be right next to it. I haven’t used it in a while though.

16

I played with media monkey, and Im gonna go with a 6.5 quality. Its actually a far better sound than the mp3. The song I used was Queen’s All Dead form the album News of the world, because Brian May sang lead and Freddie played piano so it was a higher voice part and piano to test the high end. It also has a very low bass line so it stretches the low end. It sounds as good as the Vinyl on the hifi.

And as for my list, I guess Ill just start over, I us mtp and I cant figure out how to pull the list.

Message Edited by Conversionbox on 01-25-2009 03:55 PM

17

Conversionbox wrote:

 

Hey Tape and Bob, Lemme guess this wont woek with MTP mode will it? I try and it says the file name is not valid or some such thing. 

 

Well, as you know I only use MSC, but Bob uses Rhapsody and therefore does use MTP mode. Maybe he’ll chime in, but since it was him looking for this feature specifically for MTP in another thread and found the ‘Export’ function in MP3Tag, I would assume it works in both modes.

18

@tapeworm wrote:

@conversionbox wrote:

 

Hey Tape and Bob, Lemme guess this wont woek with MTP mode will it? I try and it says the file name is not valid or some such thing. 

 

Well, as you know I only use MSC, but Bob uses Rhapsody and therefore does use MTP mode. Maybe he’ll chime in, but since it was him looking for this feature specifically for MTP in another thread and found the ‘Export’ function in MP3Tag, I would assume it works in both modes.

It doesnt matter. I have decided that It would be worth my while to format my fuze, and reload. Its time for that. Now here is my issue, How Do I get media Monkeyto reset itself to factory defaults and let me reload my library? 

19

@conversionbox wrote:

@bdb wrote:

The best way to save space with Ogg (particularly if your MP3s are constant 256kbps) is to use variable bitrate (you’d have been able to get equal quality and save space with VBR MP3 as well). You can pick a quality level between 1 and 9. I used level 4, and it comes out to about 160kbps. I think there might be a slight loss in quality with that, so you might want to start with level 5 if you’re worried about quality - it’ll still be a significant size gain.

 

dbPowerAmp is a good free program for converting.

 

As far as listing directories, this is one of those things that is easy with MSC mode, and I’m not even sure its possible with MTP. You can either use a command-line and simply enter dir /b /s *.mp3 >> filelist.txt or get a program like this.

I marked this as the solution but GB I am gonna test out some of my better quality files, and try some different rates.  BDB I love Poweramp. I have used it at work in the past, and were I not already pretty deep into WMP I would use poweramp for everything. and Donp I know there will be a slight quality loss but I am as concerned with file size, as I am quality, so if quality is close and the size is smaller I am :) 

 

Do any of you guys have the WMP plugin installed for Vorbis? I read the suggestions from Microsoft, but that doesnt help much, so what do you use if you have the plugin?

Here is the link for the directshow WMP ogg vorbis plugin

20

You’re looking to empty the MM library and then load your music into it?