AA battery powered mp3 player?

Another one supporting AA/AAA powered players as I totally agree with the opinions voiced by JK98 and many here.

I myself don’t really care whether it’s AA/AAA or some other type of battery, just STANDARDIZE the **bleep** things and make them easily replaceable. The AA standard is just easier to deal with as it’s been around forever.

One cannot get a decent AA player these days and the reasons have been discussed in this thread and others.

(see:

http://www.misticriver.net/forums/iriver-t10-t30-series-flash-players/58717-future-players-aa-aaa-batts.html

http://www.misticriver.net/forums/iriver-t10-t30-series-flash-players/58133-t10-forum-dead.html)

Here’s my thoughts of the factors:

  1. Consumers.

Sadly, the ones that want to see more DAPs with replaceable batteries are a very small minority.

A lot of people want a device that can do ‘everything’: music, videos, internet browsing, games, phone calls… they don’t want to lug around a separate device for each category and they want it to be flashy with a lot of colors, touch screen etc.

The problem is threefold.

One is that, so far, trying to cram everything into one device leads to meidocrity in most and that is what we see in today’s players which have lousier playback than, say, the DAPs of 2004-2006. The second is that all this eye candy is very battery demanding thus the need for internal Li-ion with higher capacity voltage.

The 3rd is size - smaller size means a specially designed battery and again the big and clumsy AA is discarded.

  1. Consumerism: there is no demand for replaceable batteries because people simply don’t care - in a year of two they’ll be buying the latest and not-so-greatest and throw the old one into the garbage without a second thought.

People just have no appreciation for the things they own.

This won’t stop until humanity will find a way to recycle all these or until we all be neck-deep in a pile of waste.

The companies themselves don’t care - they just want to sell more devices, so why offer a replacement battery with zero profit when you sell them the next model?

  1. Apple.

Leading the world of consumer electronics, if not in terms of sales at least in tems of influence, Apple was always about locking down it’s buyer, whether with a built-in non-user replaceable battery (even in their notebooks!) or with a supplied software (iTunes) and now when they’ve taken the lead with the iPhone/iPod touch and made their touchscreen the defacto standard every company is going down their footsteps, trying to imitate them (a bad decision in the long run IMHO) producing similar devices (the Cowon S9 comes to mind). So what we now get is an endless march of touch screen quasi-PMP devices that do eveything but the intended use of the whole **bleep** category - to output good audio.

I can’t see any company coming out with a new AA powered player and I can (sort of) understand why - it would be a business suicide.

This sad state of affairs is the reason I think that my first and only DAP, the iriver T10, will also be the last.

Message Edited by ssdd1 on 09-20-2009 05:23 AM

“1) Consumers. Sadly, the ones that want to see more DAPs with replaceable batteries are a very small minority.”

I don’t believe that, and won’t believe that until all new models of both digital cameras and cell phones  have a built in battery. The fact that there are many digital camera models being made that use AA batteries means that consumers do like using AA batteries. While an argument can be made for lithium ion and lithium ion polymer batteries since they have around double the energy density of nimh batteries, lithium batteries can’t be charged as fast as nimh batteries, and are more costly and not as standardized as nimh batteries. Another advantage of nimh batteries is that if someone is stuck without a charged battery, they could use an alkaline battery instead.

'The 3rd is size - smaller size means a specially designed battery and again the big and clumsy AA is discarded."

Smaller isn’t necessarily better if the controls and screen are too small. While allowing for a swappable battery takes up more space, if the battery is charged outside the player(as is common with Canon digital cameras) that will save the space that charging circuitry would take up. If an mp3 player is slotmusic player, USB connection circuitry and the USB connector is omitted, saving space. I am taking about a full function slotmusic player though, one with a display and good navigation, perhaps like the Clip+ but without USB connectivity and without battery charging.

"

I can’t see any company coming out with a new AA powered player and I can (sort of) understand why - it would be a business suicide."

I disagree. AA or AAA isn’t the only option for easily swappable batteries though. A lithium ion battery would also be okay if a standard sized, easily swappable, inexpensive one that is charged outside the player is used.

I am focusing on not just the aspect of easily swappability and the ability to carry inexpensive spare batteries, but also the aspect of charging batteries outside the player to prevent unnecessariry wear on the player from heat due to charging. If Canon can do this for digital cameras, and also make some several models that use AA batteries, there is no reason that mp3 player makers can’t also do this.

Message Edited by JK98 on 09-20-2009 11:03 AM

I don’t really think people in the camera market are prioritizing what type of battery a particular camera runs on though, when they are planning which one to buy.

My Nikon point and shoot runs on 2 AA’s, and I have Rayovac “Hybrid” 2100mAh NiMH rechargeables that I use in it, and I’m quite pleased with that combination. I used a gift card last Christmas to get a charger, and a bunch of  these AAA ( 800 mAh ) and AA “Hybrids”, so all my remote controls, my camera, and even my FiiO E3, which I rarely use now, can be powered by rechargable batteries that I got free. I’ve certainly saved a bunch of money this year with these batteries.

“I don’t really think people in the camera market are prioritizing what type of battery a particular camera runs on though, when they are planning which one to buy.”

I disagree. If you look at Canon’s digital cameras for example, they have some which uses AA batteries, then some similar but slightly smaller cameras that use a lithium ion battery. If people didn’t care what battery is used, then there would be little or no demand for the AA battery powered cameras. That is not the case though, as the AA powered Canon digital cameras are very popular. My conclusion from this is that there are a significant number of people who PREFER the use of AA batteries.

@jk98 wrote:

“I don’t really think people in the camera market are prioritizing what type of battery a particular camera runs on though, when they are planning which one to buy.”

 

I disagree. If you look at Canon’s digital cameras for example, they have some which uses AA batteries, then some similar but slightly smaller cameras that use a lithium ion battery. If people didn’t care what battery is used, then there would be little or no demand for the AA battery powered cameras. That is not the case though, as the AA powered Canon digital cameras are very popular. My conclusion from this is that there are a significant number of people who PREFER the use of AA batteries.

 

 

Are they at different price points? My Nikon point and shoot , running of AA’s, was around $100, whereas my sisters Nikon D90, which was somewhere around $1,200, has a li-ion that she has to remove to plug in and re-charge. 

They aren’t that different for cameras with similar functionality. i tend to look mostly at the Canon digital  camera models, as they have the most diversersity. They also often seem to often offer better value than Nikon, although for those who already have Nikon lenses, choosing a Canon camera usually doesn’t make sense(the lenses aren’t compatible). While neither Canon or Nikon makes a digital SLR that uses AA batteries, Pentax does make some of them. Notice though that there are optional battery grips for Canon and Nikon SLRs that will allow the cameras to be powered by AA batteries.

Removing a battery to charge it is a positive factor, not a negative one. The heat generated when charging a battery adds extra wear to electronic circuits, and shortens their lifespan. I guess charging a battery internally is desired though if someone wants to design something that is disposable.

@jk98 wrote:

They aren’t that different for cameras with similar functionality. i tend to look mostly at the Canon digital  camera models, as they have the most diversersity. They also often seem to often offer better value than Nikon, although for those who already have Nikon lenses, choosing a Canon camera usually doesn’t make sense(the lenses aren’t compatible). While neither Canon or Nikon makes a digital SLR that uses AA batteries, Pentax does make some of them. Notice though that there are optional battery grips for Canon and Nikon SLRs that will allow the cameras to be powered by AA batteries.

 

Removing a battery to charge it is a positive factor, not a negative one. The heat generated when charging a battery adds extra wear to electronic circuits, and shortens their lifespan. I guess charging a battery internally is desired though if someone wants to design something that is disposable.

 

I didn’t mean to imply it was bad to have to remove the battery to charge it. It is indeed a good idea, not only because of the heat issue which you mentioned ( which I have seen on my AA and AAA while in the charger ) but it would give her the option to swap out on-the-go, if necessary. I know very little about cameras, to be honest…I have a Nikon P&S because that’s what was purchased for me a couple Christmases ago. I know that they and Canons are both well-regarded, but that’s about it.

@jk98 wrote:

“1) Consumers. Sadly, the ones that want to see more DAPs with replaceable batteries are a very small minority.”

 

I don’t believe that, and won’t believe that until all new models of both digital cameras and cell phones  have a built in battery. 

Well, I haven’t done any good statistics poll but the crowd has spoken - AA powered DAPs are virtually extinct and I think digital cameras are following this trend.

Maybe it’s because of ignorance and maybe it’s because people just don’t care - it doesn’t matter as the bottom line is the same.

Even in 2006, near the end of the AA era in DAPs when other companies’ products were much superior in all aspects, people still bought 3 times more Apple products (remember the upset when all these original ipods were dying because of the battery?)  

http://www.dapreview.net/comment.php?comment.news.3542

 

If people were so interested in AA powered DAPs they would stop buying every new iPhone that pops up but it hasn’t happened yet and it seems people don’t care; in their mind, a year-old electronic device is already obsolete so why would they want to keep it when they can buy the latest-and-greatest? 

 

 

 The fact that there are many digital camera models being made that use AA batteries means that consumers do like using AA batteries.

 

The consumers may like it on some device but even that is changing.

AA is considered too bulky and it doesn’t fit in with the trend of slim device with huge screens that slip-in-your-pocket.

 

Smaller isn’t necessarily better if the controls and screen are too small. While allowing for a swappable battery takes up more space, if the battery is charged outside the player[…]

 

I agree 100% but I’m one of the choir… there are many infidels out there who wouldn’t listen…

 

 

I disagree. AA or AAA isn’t the only option for easily swappable batteries though. A lithium ion battery would also be okay if a standard sized, easily swappable, inexpensive one that is charged outside the player is used.

Again, total agreement. I would also mention that it’s relatively easy to design a device that can operate on all kinds of battery chemistries (in fact, many flashlights do that) with the same for factor.

 

There are a few problems:

  1. There should be an agreement on the form factor/voltage for this new standard - but with all the format wars/solid state memory wars etc. going on with each company trying to crush the others can you see a wall-to-wall agreement and effort to push this new standard? I can’t.

 

  1. This standard would make it harder for companies to design slimmer devices as they do now with molding the battery to fit the device they create rather than the opposite.

 

  1. I already mentioned it in my previous post: companies want to sell more products. Duh. And right now, in the consumer electronics/handhelds industry, they can sell products without a replaceable battery and get away with it, so why wouldn’t they continue? this way they can sell a new model every year instead of 

a zero-profit battery. Why sell less when you can sell more? standard, long life, rechargeable, replaceable battery is only gonna lower sales. This isn’t the swiss watches industry: “We’re proud that our products last a lifetime”, this is consumer electronics: “Look, the new model has more colors! and it is sooooo shiny”.

 

there is no reason that mp3 player makers can’t also do this.

 

They certainly can, but they don’t. And it won’t change as long as it fits the industry and there’s not enough demand, which bring me back to the starting point. We’re the minority. The informed fringe.

Message Edited by ssdd1 on 09-22-2009 02:45 PM

Message Edited by ssdd1 on 09-22-2009 02:45 PM

“Well, I haven’t done any good statistics poll but the crowd has spoken - AA powered DAPs are virtually extinct and I think digital cameras are following this trend. Maybe it’s because of ignorance and maybe it’s because people just don’t care -”

No, it is that there isn’t one company that dominates  digital cameras or cell phones. Canon, Sony, and Nikon are big players in digital cameras, however there is also Konica, Panasonic, Pentax, Olympus, and others.

With mp3 players, since Apple has such large market share, they set the trend. Imo many people including myself want an mp3  with an easily swappable battery, however since high quality ones aren’t available now, we reluctantly buy a player with a built in battery. Let’s see which company will be first to make a high quality, large capacity, flash memory based player with a card slot and an easily swappable battery. It would be even nicer if it is built using a metal case, and it it has a 3 year warranty.

How about an mp3 player that uses a popular cell phone battery? Some of those battery models retail on the net for only around $5 or so each, and are easy to find. They seem to be 700 mah or more and 3.7 v, or at least 30% more capacity than the battery in the Fuze. I want to be able to carry spare batteries, and swap the battery quickly when it is out of power.

for those who wants and AA powered mp3 player we already had things like those that why the stop making those it was a waste of time and now its time to help the enviroment by using these batteries that last for up to 2 years

"for those who wants and AA powered mp3 player we already had things like those that why the stop making those it was a waste of time and now its time to help the enviroment by using these batteries that last for up to 2 years "

There are AA nimh rechargeable batteries. AA does not mean alkaline. To help promote the use of rechargeables, a player could be bundled with a charger and two AA nimh batteries, as these are very inexpensive.

Nobody makes AA power mp3 players

"Nobody makes AA power mp3 players "

They have been made in the past though, and might be made in the future. I would also like to see mp3 players built around an inexpensive easily swappable cell phone battery, such as the Motorola BR50. The BR50 is used by the Razr, has 710 mah at 3.7 V, and sells for around $7 on the net with shipping.

if you want a player with AA batteries buy the old sansa models end of story.

@jk98 wrote:

"Nobody makes AA power mp3 players "

 

They have been made in the past though, and might be made in the future. I would also like to see mp3 players built around an inexpensive easily swappable cell phone battery, such as the Motorola BR50. The BR50 is used by the Razr, has 710 mah at 3.7 V, and sells for around $7 on the net with shipping.

 

 

“if you want a player with AA batteries buy the old sansa models end of story.”

 Sandisk never made any AA battery based models, just AAA based ones. Other companies made AA battery based players, however they had 2 GB or less of storage. I want a player with great sound quality, at least 4GB of internal storage, and a card slot.

How about an mp3 player that uses a Motorola BR50 battery? That battery is 710 mah and 3.7 v. A Player around the size of the Clip+ that uses an easily swappable(not soldered in) BR50 battery. The BR50 has over double the power of the battery in the Clip+. Imagine a Clip+ sized player(or just a tiny bit larger) that gets 32 hours of battery life, and for which the battery is easily swappable and someone can carry spare batteries. A BR50 battery is only around $7 retail on the net.

Just ran into this on another search for the same thing. This is not what most people would want but comes really close to me getting it.

http://www.sourcingmap.com/portable-white-music-player-tuner-sdmmc-card-compatible-built-128mb-flash-p-13253.html

Unfortunately no photo, only 1 in stock etc, not a brand name.

Takes 4 AA batteries, has an external charger, speakers, sd card, 2 alarm clock settings. 

Unfortunately nearly 8 inches long and only goes up to 8 kbps. If it went to 16 I’d get it. Most of my stuff isn’t music, just speaking and with the headphones this would be fine for travelling, at least for me. It would be nice to have a travel alarm that holds extra batteries too, a little more reliable when you have a flight to catch. It is cheap enough that with just that 16 kbps improvement they would have had me trying it out.

I agree… AA batteries are great!  They are cheap, available and last a long time.

I have an old Cowon G2 that uses ONE AA and it lasts probably 40 hrs. 

Now, after using the Fuze for nearly two years, I have no problem with the built in 

battery.  I really like the form factor of the Fuze.

My only wish now would be for the Fuze  to have a user replaceable battery.

That would be great. 

This discussion is continuing here.

http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum/showthread.php?p=429511#post429511