Before buying: songs playing at a slower speed?

Woot!  Thanks sansafix!!!

Now that I know that this issue can be resolved via firmware (see below), and likely will be resolved either by Sandisk or by Rockbox, I’m buying a Fuze. Thanks again to everybody who has helped shed light on and bring attention to this issue. I apologize to everyone I was impatient with, but as you can now see, this IS a legitimate issue.

sansafix wrote: 
Hi, its a battery life tradeoff. Running higher PLL will degrade battery life 5 - 7%.

Issue is logged and we will look into it again as time permits.
Message Edited by sansafix on 02-18-2009 10:03 AM

Message Edited by maxplanck on 02-18-2009 07:34 PM

All,

Good news, We have reduced the pitch error by one order of magnitude with little to no effect on battery life (<3%).

The optimization will be included in the next firmware release due out this quarter.

We have optimized for 44Khz and the pitch error is < 0.14%

For all other samples rates its <0.18%

Message Edited by sansafix on 02-19-2009 08:37 AM

Thanks Sansafix!

Just for my own information…could you tell me was the pitch error only on the V2 units and only on mp3 tracks?

BTW…When you say battery life do you mean the over all battery life expectany or power consumption and therefore more frequent charges? Perhaps both if the number of charges this battery type would take is several hundred a early death by the factor of 3% is acceptable…I’ll go back and check the forum for epected life details for the battery.

Thanks for the quick response!

I would recommend for the the musicians who have been complaining about off pitch playback to tune their instruments, go to their DAW software (Protools, Cubase, Ableton, etc.), pitch up a song by 0.14%, and play your instrument while playing back that pitched up song. Listen to hear if playback is close enough in pitch to your instrument to be acceptable. Then post back here to let us know.

It’s always a good idea to test with end users before release, so that problems like this don’t arise in the first place. I understand that, with the way corporate management tends to madly and blindly grasp for profit, appropriate testing may not be provided for in the budget. But certainly at least some small scale testing with users is almost always possible, even if it’s only unofficial and organized by the engineers alone. That will prevent problems like this from emerging in the first place (provided that the engineers listen carefully to the users, then redesign if necessary and retest until users give the *thumbs up*).

Operating this way (i.e. user testing and revamping the product until users give the *thumbs up* prior to release) is better for sales. You’ll get 5 star average reviews on Amazon, on user forums and by word-of-mouth. Sales will increase as a result.

It’s also better for society (less “junk” products on the market therefore less material and labor waste, less of users’ time wasted struggling with poorly designed products).

Edit:

bobletteross:  The unit will consume energy at a slightly faster pace with the fix. With the fix, a full battery charge will last ~3% less in terms of playback time, compared to how it is now. Whether that decreases the useful life of the unit depends on how you use it. (do you run the battery down to empty or recharge more frequently?, etc.) However, Li batteries seem to have an amazing lifespan, personally I’m not concerned.

The issue affects the playback speed of all audio file formats, since all audio files play back using the same clock mechanism. Pitch error will vary depending on the Sample Rate of the file, due to the nature of the clock mechanism.

I’m pretty sure that the pitch error occurs on all units of both the Fuze and the Clip, since it is a firmware issue. Since the V1 and V2 units have different firmware versions it’s possible that they may behave differently, but I would imagine that the relevant parts of the firmware code are similar if not identical.

Message Edited by maxplanck on 02-19-2009 10:54 AM

That is great news, Sansafix!  Will this apply to both the Fuze and the Clip?

Message Edited by davek on 02-19-2009 01:46 PM

Now I’m certain I remember why I prefer Sandisk products and always buy their brand when given the option.  I don’t mind paying more for quality.

The quality of Sandisk’s response to this disorder is superb.

Kudos! :slight_smile:

Don’t buy it!!!

@sansafix wrote:

Good news, We have reduced the pitch error by one order of magnitude with little to no effect on battery life (<3%).
The optimization will be included in the next firmware release due out this quarter.
We have optimized for 44Khz and the pitch error is < 0.14%
For all other samples rates its <0.18%

Thanks Sansafix,

That is even faster response than I had even dreamed possible. Thanks also to all my fellow buddies here who put forth their effort and opinions to demonstrate the customer perspective on this issue. I won’t miss the 3% in battery life, and will rest assured that the Fuze reproduces the tones in the music with an accuracy better than human hearing can discern.

@mptres wrote:
Don’t buy it!!!

Man, what’s your damage? Seriously, every single post I’ve seen by you says “Don’t buy it”, Get rid of the player as soon as you can", etc.  It’s a bit much, don’t you think?

Seriously, musicians who have been complaining about off pitch playback: I would recommend that you tune your instruments, pitch up a song by 0.14%, and play your instrument while listening to that pitched up song. Listen to hear if playback is close enough in pitch to your instrument to be acceptable. Then post back here to let us know.

The Sansa engineers are assuming that ~0.14% pitch error is going to be acceptable, but they are not musicians and have not tested this setting to make sure that it will be acceptable in a “playing your instrument alongside your Fuze” context. This is probably your last chance to have something done about it if +/-0.14% isn’t close enough, so you should test to make sure.

If you don’t know how to pitch up a file by precisely 0.14%, then PM me. You can send me your file, and I will pitch it up for you.

Message Edited by maxplanck on 02-19-2009 06:18 PM

@maxplanck wrote:

Seriously, musicians who have been complaining about off pitch playback: I would recommend that you tune your instruments, pitch up a song by 0.14%, and play your instrument while listening to that pitched up song. Listen to hear if playback is close enough in pitch to your instrument to be acceptable. Then post back here to let us know.

 

The Sansa engineers are assuming that ~0.14% pitch error is going to be acceptable, but they are not musicians and have not tested this setting to make sure that it will be acceptable in a “playing your instrument alongside your Fuze” context. This is probably your last chance to have something done about it if +/-0.14% isn’t close enough, so you should test to make sure.

 

If you don’t know how to pitch up a file by precisely 0.14%, then PM me. You can send me your file, and I will pitch it up for you.

Message Edited by maxplanck on 02-19-2009 06:18 PM

Many have performed studies with many different test subjects and published their findings on the “just noticiable difference” of two pitches. The standard answer is that a very well trained person under ideal circumstances can here a difference of about 5 cents, or about 0.3%. I am satisfied to take that number. A player that is accurate to half that tolerance has sufficient accuracy for me.  Here is a link to a discussion of this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent\_(music)

neat!  I was actually just detuning my keyboard when playing along with the player (though a lot of the sources I am using would have required that anyway, regardless of the player).  But still, accuracy in reproducing the original recording is important, leaving the task of conforming to standard tuning as the responsibility of the performers/performers’ equipment.  <3% power on an already power conservative device is just fine by me…  Heck my iRiver only laster 2-4 hours and was 4-5 x bigger and heavier :wink:

Now if I can only get my computer to recognize my player in MTP format I’d be all set…

It has been said before but I’ll say it again…the Fuze is NOT a digital recorder intended for reproduction of recorded music to be integrated into a sound reinforcement system to support a  concert venue OR is touted as a device for musicians to play along to. There is better equipment for that…and more expensive for many reasons.  

But it IS for private a/v pleasure…lets continue with the pleassure…

Musicians…buy the appropriate equipment please…

Message Edited by bobletteross on 02-20-2009 04:33 AM

@bobletteross wrote:

It has been said before but I’ll say it again…the Fuze is NOT a digital recorder intended for reproduction of recorded music to be integrated into a sound reinforcement system to support a  concert venue OR is touted as a device for musicians to play along to. 

Recording is a different issue, and given that the only live input is a built in mono microphone, the intent is clearly not concert quality music.

 But… the last time I took musical instrument lessons, a portable recorder (cassette at the time) was definately part of the gear, and preserving the pitch is a nice touch in that context.  

 

@bobletteross wrote:

It has been said before but I’ll say it again…the Fuze is NOT a digital recorder intended for reproduction of recorded music to be integrated into a sound reinforcement system to support a  concert venue OR is touted as a device for musicians to play along to. There is better equipment for that…and more expensive for many reasons.  

 

But it IS for private a/v pleasure…lets continue with the pleassure…

 

Musicians…buy the appropriate equipment please…

Message Edited by bobletteross on 02-20-2009 04:33 AM

I’m not sure.  For $99 at BestBuy I got the Sony NWZ-e438f and can play music against it or use it for background music through the house system between sets at performances. It is smack on in pitch and timing accuracy against all my files in my PC.  I would strongly consider the Fuze again, however, now that Sandisk is attending to it’s accuracy.

If I bought a Timex quartz watch that was off by a few minutes per day I would complain too, and not be disuaded by any argument that I should have bought a professonal timepiece if I wanted better.

A watch’s purpose is to keep accuarate time and the accuracy over time will depend on the craftmanship and/or quality control of the manufacturer.

However, MY point was that the Fuze’s intended purpose and the appropriate tools for the appropriate job. The Fuze is for portable, personal, audio/visual enjoyment. My V1 Fuze sounds dead on. If the V2 Fuzes need a fix so be it. BUT, it aint either a timepiece or a digital recorder, people! 

Message Edited by bobletteross on 02-20-2009 05:57 AM

@bobletteross wrote:

However, MY point was that the Fuze’s intended purpose and the appropriate tools for the appropriate job. The Fuze is for portable, personal, audio/visual enjoyment. My V1 Fuze sounds dead on. If the V2 Fuzes need a fix so be it.

My point is that Sony can provide the same portable, personal, audio/visual enjoyment tool at the same economical price that meets the identical market and do so with a precise rate of accuracy.

I’m glad to know that there are differences that I should have been more aware of before entering this market.  I will be more apt to select cheap devices that possess a higher tolerence to error.

@bobletteross wrote:

 BUT, it aint either a timepiece or a digital recorder, people! 

Message Edited by bobletteross on 02-20-2009 05:57 AM

Why do you keep bringing that OT issue up?  BTW, 2 mouse clicks from this page shows Sansa saynig it is a recorder.

 

@donp wrote:


@bobletteross wrote:

 BUT, it aint either a timepiece or a digital recorder, people! 

Message Edited by bobletteross on 02-20-2009 05:57 AM


Why do you keep bringing that OT issue up?  BTW, 2 mouse clicks from this page shows Sansa saynig it is a recorder.

 

 

Don’t they refer to it as simply a “voice recorder” ?