Switching between micro SDHC disks a practical solution for large collections?

I’m about to buy an 8 GB Sansa Clip along with a micro SDHC card.  I have 40 GB worth of music so obviously they won’t all fit at one time. I also note that the 16 GB cards tend to get significantly worse reviews than many 8 GB cards.  So my question is: can I organize my music on separate cards and swap them out? i.e. will the music be retained? I know that there is a DB refresh when a card is inserted, so how will it handle multiple cards? My idea is to create playlists organized by music type and card location; obviously only the loaded playlists would work properly. 

Also, I notice that at NewEgg there are no highly rated 16 GB cards, though many 8 GB do well, and that the 16 GB are often slower than 8 GB (e.g. class 2 vs 6). Any advice there?

Advice/facts appreciated.

Thanks,

Sam

The Clip doesn’t have a card slot. The Clip+ has a card slot. You could use an adappter and attach a 32 GB full sized SDHC card to the Clip+.

http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/2009/09/sansa-clip-40gb-possible-with-adapter.php

The refresh time could be quite long for 16 GB cards that have many songs on them. If you have 8 GB cards and use a higher bitrate, refresh times won’t be so bad. A class 2 16 GB card might take a long time to load. I guess it could take up to 2 hours. If you change the music on the card rarely, then it wouldn’t be so bad. I would not want to completely refill a 16 GB class 2 card very often.

Sorry, I meant clip +; I’ve researched this forum and read many reviews so I’m fairly familiar with pro’s and con’s at this point, it’s just that I’ve not seen anyone storing audio on multiple cards and swapping them out.

Your point on load performance on 16 GB class two cards is helpful but on reflection would not hurt me since I propose putting a relatively static 30 GB collection on multiple cards and not erasing them.

I would estimate it taking less than an hour (maybe ~30 mins if the 16gb card is full) to refresh every time a card is removed/inserted (even if you put the same card back in) in MTP mode.  I have a full 8GB device and a roughly half full 16GB card and it takes approx 10-15 mins to refresh.  I load the device memory in MTP mode and use a card reader to fill the card (which is therefore MSC mode).

As far as playlists are concerned you may need to do some trial and error to see how best to store the playlists.  If you want playlists to use both internal and external memory you will need to use MTP mode (settings/system settings/usb mode) and create .pla playlists using windows explorer (a search will show more on that issue).  There are some scripts for the fuze that would allow you to do this in MSC mode, but as far as I am aware they don’t support the clip+ (I’m hoping YAPL will soon).  If you just want playlists to use either the internal or external memory you can use m3u playlists (again a search will show more information).

I have playlists stored on the card and on the device and so far haven’t lost anything after removing cards, but I know there were issues with the fuze “losing” playlists stored on the micro sd.  Again I would suggest trial and error to see how best to work it for you.

The speeds given (card classes) don’t affect the use of the card in the player, but do affect the speed you can load songs onto the card.  I haven’t had a problem with any class 2 cards.

That is very helpful, thanks very much!  I guess I’ll start with a class 6,  8 GB card and then see how long it takes for a 32 GB card to hit the market.

Again, thanks.

Sam

SamAt wrote:

That is very helpful, thanks very much!  I guess I’ll start with a class 6,  8 GB card and then see how long it takes for a 32 GB card to hit the market.

 

Again, thanks.

 

Sam

Whatever you do remember that the refresh rate is directly related to the amount of media on the combination player and card. See how you feel about the refresh rate with that card, and then decide, it might be better for you to only keep the 1 card and just load your set-up with your favorite songs, that way you dont have to manage the cards and deal with refreshing the database every time you switch. 

I am convinced that higher class cards do tend to result in faster refresh for the player everything else being equal. The class of the card is for write time, however cards that write faster also tend to be read faster. My 4 GB and 8 Gb cards are class 4 though as I wasn’t willing to pay much extra for class 6. I did want to avoid class 2 cards though.

It isn’t as much a  matter of when 32 GB misro SDHC cards hit the market, but how they are priced. If they are $150 or more, there may be few buyers. Even at $100 though interest might not be so huge. Perhaps if 32 GB microSDHC cards do get to just under $100 soon enough, the 16 GB cards might drop to $30 or so? I guess I might be tempted to buy a brand name 16 GB class 4 card if it is under $35 even though I don’t really need one.

@jk98 wrote:

I am convinced that higher class cards do tend to result in faster refresh for the player everything else being equal. The class of the card is for write time, however cards that write faster also tend to be read faster. My 4 GB and 8 Gb cards are class 4 though as I wasn’t willing to pay much extra for class 6. I did want to avoid class 2 cards though.

 

It isn’t as much a  matter of when 32 GB misro SDHC cards hit the market, but how they are priced. If they are $150 or more, there may be few buyers. Even at $100 though interest might not be so huge. Perhaps if 32 GB microSDHC cards do get to just under $100 soon enough, the 16 GB cards might drop to $30 or so? I guess I might be tempted to buy a brand name 16 GB class 4 card if it is under $35 even though I don’t really need one.

 

 

I’m sure I read somewhere that the internal memory is class 2, which would make the speed of database refresh constant regardless of the class of the microsd surely?  I haven’t noticed a difference in database refresh times using class 4 vs class 2.

Regarding 32GB cards, my understanding is the Clip+ database can only hold about 8000 tracks.

So, assuming you’re loading mp3/ogg/wma files (rather than big FLAC files) there’s a good chance you wouldn’t be able to use the full 40GB capacity.

ie: assuming an average file size of 4MB, you could transfer roughly 10,000 of them, but the Clip/Fuze would only provide access to roughly 8,000.

“So, assuming you’re loading mp3/ogg/wma files (rather than big FLAC files) there’s a good chance you wouldn’t be able to use the full 40GB capacity.”

It depends. Some people use a bitrate of 256 or 320 kbps. At 256 kbps, 40 GB of songs averaging 4 minutes  is only around 5400 songs.

Message Edited by JK98 on 12-30-2009 09:30 AM

@jk98 wrote:

 

It depends. Some people use a bitrate of 256 or 320 kbps. At 256 kbps, 40 GB of songs averaging 4 minutes  is only around 5400 songs.

Absolutely – but with that said, I know I’ve seen at least one person hit the 8000 limit on a Clip with a 16GB card! (he had very low bitrate ogg files, I think 64kbit/s)

Even with ogg or wma, 64kbps is just too low, IMO.

I use bitrates as low as 12 kbps wma or 16 kbps mp3, but those are for lectures, and not music. For music I use 256 kbps mp3.

Message Edited by JK98 on 12-30-2009 10:36 AM

The discussion of file types and bit-rates could go on forever without a perfect solution for everbody.  No two people’s ears are exact or hear the same things.  What may work for one person, may not be ideal for another.

What is important is the file limitation imposed by the player.  That’s fine that it has this limitation…if it is clearly identified to a potential customer. 

It’s been awhile since I looked at any Clip+ literature, so I don’t know if it is clearly mentioned or not…if it is, that’s great…but if it isn’t, the advertising and owner’s literature is in the need of a necessary update.

Sansa isn’t the only manufacturer to impose file quantity limitations on their players… But, in my humble opinion that it is the manufacturer’s responsibily to note this limitation clearly so the consumer can decide if it’s the right player for them… BEFORE PURCHASE.

Message Edited by fuze_owner-GB on 12-30-2009 11:59 AM

The other player makers don’t advertise their song limits either. The assumption seems to be that if people want more memory in a player it is to be able to use higher bitrates, and not cram more files on the player. I guess they should print the song number limit in their literature, although assuming that people will use at least 128 kbps isn’t that unreasonable. A workaround to the song limit is to have some songs in the podcast or audiobook sections of the player. I wonder if there are any limits for those sections of the player.

The file limitation is not a static figure…at least I have seen no evidence that it is a hard-coded number like “8000”.

Apparently the limitation is based upon the size of the Clip’s internal database table (MTABLE.SYS). If the combination of all of the metadata (tags) and filenames on the Clip’s internal memory + SD card exceed a certain size then you run into problems. Making matters worse is that because the Clip never fully indexes all of the files (again MTABLE.SYS “runs out of space” ), every time you turn your Clip+ on, it refreshes your media…because it sees more files than entries in its index and thinks you added some more, even though what really happened is that it never finished indexing previously.

The solution may be to just copy over enough files to allow the Clip to index them all. “Enough” is an unknown figure and will vary from device to device since it is based on metadata not simply # of files.

I am close to returning my Clip+ and buying a hard-drive based player. Here I thought flash-based players were great (small and solid-state=reliable) but they aren’t suitable for large collections even if the amount of memory (in my case, 24GB) is sufficient.

Message Edited by black_cat on 12-30-2009 09:46 AM

@jk98 wrote:

The other player makers don’t advertise their song limits either. The assumption seems to be that if people want more memory in a player it is to be able to use higher bitrates, and not cram more files on the player. I guess they should print the song number limit in their literature, although assuming that people will use at least 128 kbps isn’t that unreasonable. A workaround to the song limit is to have some songs in the podcast or audiobook sections of the player. I wonder if there are any limits for those sections of the player.

I disagree.  I know this is a Sansa board, but I’m using this as an example, only.  I am not recommending the player mentioned here, or suggesting it is better than Sandisk’s products.  I own a lot of players from a variety of manufacturers, and a while ago I was in the market for another player.  As I was searching around, the Cowon D2+ caught my eye…Long story, cut short …They clearly identified in their spec sheet and owner’s manual that there was a 4000 song limit for internal memory and a 4000 song limit for the expansion memory.

Manufacturers can do what they want, within the limits of legality…But…I know I would be much more likely to purchase another product from a company that was up-front an honest; listing the players specifications, warts and all, than a company that was deceptive, by omission.

It is completely unreasonable to expect a consumer to abide by a certain bit-rate or filesize, unless they are told up-front that there is a limitation.  The sheep may just shrug their shoulder’s and accept the status quo…I don’t.  I am a demanding consumer, and ANY company that intentionally omits important technical data, that will influence the way I have to use the player, will be scratched off my list as far as potential future purchases.

Message Edited by fuze_owner-GB on 12-30-2009 12:57 PM

While there is no guaranty of being able to have 8,000 songs recognized on the Clip+, most people can usually get 6,000 or more recognized unless they use excessive nesting, or very long filenames or very long tags.

The expensive 32 GB flash based players from other makers might recognize more songs than the Clip+, although those also have limits. Most player makers today seem to assume that people will use at least 128 kbps and have songs averaging around 4 minutes.

If you use short file names, tag names, and folder names, and don’t use excessive nesting of folders, you might be able to have around 8,000 songs recognized on the Clip+. If songs average 4 minutes each, at 128 kbps 24 GB can hold around 6,000 songs. At 96 kbps, 24 GB can hold around 8,000 songs. If you have over 8,000 songs that fits in 24 GB then I guess your average song length is under 4 minutes or you are using a bitrate less than 96 kbps.

The filesize/file number limation doesn’t affect me at all.  I am a musician and even at my advanced age, have pretty good hearing…so all of my files are encoded in such a way that I would never even come close to the imposed limitation.

What I am talking about goes far deeper.  Not just with this issue, but about any issue that affects the way a person has to use the device…Manufacturer’s need to be honest and forthcoming with me about any potential limitation to keep my business.  This goes for every product that I purchase, not just Sandisk.

Message Edited by fuze_owner-GB on 12-30-2009 01:11 PM