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SanDisk Guru
Posts: 4,898
Registered: ‎11-17-2008

Re: Pitch bug on Clip+?


@Conversionbox wrote:

@slotmonsta wrote:

Over the last few days there have been several meetings with Engineering, Marketing, and Product Management regarding the pitch issue some users have seen. Please see below a statement regarding the decision that was reached as a result of these meetings.

 

At SanDisk, our goal with our Sansa MP3 product line is to provide products which deliver a quality consumer experience at price points which are accessible to the majority of the population.  Our “value” positioning has served us well historically, although we acknowledge that occasionally our products do not live up to some users’ expectations.  The issues raised on this Forum regarding sound fidelity are important to us however due to trade-off decisions that were made in engineering these products to deliver superior consumer value at what we believe are extremely attractive price points, our sound fidelity isn’t perfect.  We have re-evaluated the possibility of reducing the pitch variation and due to the engineering trade-offs the decision was made to stay with the current design. Very few listeners, however, have noticed or complained about it as an issue in actual practice.  For those who can detect sound differences with their naked ears during actual use and not via frequency analysis, our products may not be the best choice for them.

 

Forum Admin

slotmonsta 


 
While it may upset some people I have to say I am very Impressed by this response... It also echoes my thoughts on this matter... Sansa makes a product that is significantly less expensive than other player brands, and you get what you pay for in this sense. I have a couple of players that cost 4 figures, and they do sound better, but who wants to carry something like that when you run or are out and about I sure dont. So I applaud Sandisk for saying If you need better quality than what Sansa can offer for the price they offer it at, maybe you should find something else. 

 


I'm afraid I must disagree. If they had said, on the old Clip, it's going to stay the way it is, that's one thing. But to acknowledge the issue on a new player and state it will not be addressed, I find that extremely disappointing....and I never could hear the pitch offset with the naked ear.

 

The price comparison, examples have been brought up of even cheaper players that play the correct speed, so I don't think that argument holds water either. I've been thinking about a Clip+ next spring as an outdoor, beater-type player.....looks like I'll be exploring other options now.Smiley Sad

iPod Touch 5G 32GB, Touch 4G 32GB, Clip Sport 8GB.
Rockbox-> Clip Zip 4GB, iPod Nano 2G 4GB, iPod 5.5G 80GB
2012 Nexus 7 32GB, Asus MeMoPad 8 16+64GB, LG Optimus G Pro, Nokia Lumia 900, Nokia Lumia 520

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Newbie
Posts: 11
Registered: ‎12-18-2007

Re: Pitch bug on Clip+?

I'm solidly with Marvin_Martian on this one. To refuse to fix a known playback bug which now spans two generations of players (and which we were told had already been fixed internally) is dispicable on SanDisk's part. If this decision holds, the Clip+ will no longer be in my future, either.
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SanDisk Guru
Posts: 1,669
Registered: ‎10-07-2007

Re: Pitch bug on Clip+?


@epithetless wrote:
I'm solidly with Marvin_Martian on this one. To refuse to fix a known playback bug which now spans two generations of players (and which we were told had already been fixed internally) is dispicable on SanDisk's part. If this decision holds, the Clip+ will no longer be in my future, either.

 

Well see, this is the thing that confuses me.  If the bug has already been fixed internally (and I'm not disputing that it has), why is SanDisk holding back on it?  Out of pure malevolence?  Or some kind of cost-saving motive?

 

If it's for cost-saving reasons, I'm not sure I have a problem with it.  Let me play the devil's advocate here ... SanDisk doesn't state on the Clip's packaging, "perfect sound for everyone."  If they fixed the pitch bug, which I think everyone agrees is only noticed by a relatively small number of audiophiles with perfect ear-brain connections ;-), what's to say that someone else wouldn't come along and say "you don't support audio format 'X' which I consider to be the most perfect-sounding format on the planet?"

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SanDisk Guru
Posts: 8,152
Registered: ‎12-11-2007

Re: Pitch bug on Clip+?

I would be more than happy to pay $1-$2 more for my player for on-going firmware improvements.
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SanDisk Guru
Posts: 3,676
Registered: ‎12-04-2008

Re: Pitch bug on Clip+?


@Miikerman wrote:
I would be more than happy to pay $1-$2 more for my player for on-going firmware improvements.
+1... I think I read it on here before, someone had the Idea about a "Premium" firmware that customers could buy for a small fee. I think the original intent was for things like folders and Gappless before it looked like Sansa was ready to give them to us. Now I hear some difference in pitch on the origional clip, (and I will be playin with the Clip+ for the first time tomorrow, Ill let you know what I hear), but I as a trained musician dont hear enough of a difference that the untrained ear or even most people with training could hear. Its because of that I would support the Idea of If you have a problem you can get the fix but because its costing the company extra money (that It may not have) you have to pay a little extra.

 


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Newbie
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎09-04-2009

Re: Pitch bug on Clip+?

[ Edited ]

@slotmonsta wrote:

Over the last few days there have been several meetings with Engineering, Marketing, and Product Management regarding the pitch issue some users have seen. Please see below a statement regarding the decision that was reached as a result of these meetings.

 

At SanDisk, our goal with our Sansa MP3 product line is to provide products which deliver a quality consumer experience at price points which are accessible to the majority of the population.  Our “value” positioning has served us well historically, although we acknowledge that occasionally our products do not live up to some users’ expectations.  The issues raised on this Forum regarding sound fidelity are important to us however due to trade-off decisions that were made in engineering these products to deliver superior consumer value at what we believe are extremely attractive price points, our sound fidelity isn’t perfect.  We have re-evaluated the possibility of reducing the pitch variation and due to the engineering trade-offs the decision was made to stay with the current design. Very few listeners, however, have noticed or complained about it as an issue in actual practice.  For those who can detect sound differences with their naked ears during actual use and not via frequency analysis, our products may not be the best choice for them.

 

Forum Admin

slotmonsta 


While it's nice to be informed, I must echo the others in this dissapointing decision. A couple of points I'd like to opinion:

 

1) This is the second most viewed thread in Clip+'s forum. This is a hot-topic that needs actions, not words.

 

2) As Marvin_Martian and others have stated, players less expensive than the Clip+ have much more accurate pitch, so the 'value' proposition is not a valid argument

 

3) Many, including myself, have stated that the Clip+ is on the edge of a just noticable pitch difference. You say few people can detect this, but I challenge people on this forum to listen to these clips on Wikipedia and find out if they can tell the difference. Particularily the 'Six Cents' and 'Ten Cents' clips, as that's roughtly the pitch accuracy of the Clip+ right now.

 

4) Rockbox developers have said here that the pitch error could be fixed by adjusting the PLL. Sandisk's own employee (sansafix) also mentioned this possible fix as well is a previous post here. In fact, sansafix said here that they were able to improve the pitch at the expense of some battery life. 

 

If fixing the pitch does indeed reduce battery life (although sansafix mentioned less than 3%), I'm going to go back to my previous idea to give users the option to enable the fix via the settings menu in the player. Or, as Miikerman said, put a bounty cost for fixing the pitch error. I'm sure you'll find enough donaters to recoup a programmer's time/cost.

Message Edited by schnarky42 on 09-23-2009 05:49 PM
Message Edited by schnarky42 on 09-23-2009 05:51 PM
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SanDisk Guru
Posts: 3,676
Registered: ‎12-04-2008

Re: Pitch bug on Clip+?


schnarky42 wrote: 

 

3) Many, including myself, have stated that the Clip+ is on the edge of a just noticable pitch difference. You say few people can detect this, but I challenge people on this forum to listen to these clips on Wikipedia and find out if they can tell the difference. Particularily the 'Six Cents' and 'Ten Cents' clips, as that's roughtly the pitch accuracy of the Clip+ right now.

 


Testing tones is one thing but the only test that matters is listening to the same things you listen to every day... your music your podcasts, whatever... If you hear a difference then you continue to look for answers but If you listen and honestly cant tell a difference when you listen to your favorite songs then you can move on to listening enjoyment. If the player is off but you cant hear that difference whats the point in splitting hairs?

 

 


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SanDisk Professor
Posts: 431
Registered: ‎09-28-2008

Re: Pitch bug on Clip+?

I'm glad ConversionBox is back again, now we have a more balanced voice again.
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Newbie
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎09-04-2009

Re: Pitch bug on Clip+?


@Conversionbox wrote:

schnarky42 wrote: 

 

3) Many, including myself, have stated that the Clip+ is on the edge of a just noticable pitch difference. You say few people can detect this, but I challenge people on this forum to listen to these clips on Wikipedia and find out if they can tell the difference. Particularily the 'Six Cents' and 'Ten Cents' clips, as that's roughtly the pitch accuracy of the Clip+ right now.

 


Testing tones is one thing but the only test that matters is listening to the same things you listen to every day... your music your podcasts, whatever... If you hear a difference then you continue to look for answers but If you listen and honestly cant tell a difference when you listen to your favorite songs then you can move on to listening enjoyment. If the player is off but you cant hear that difference whats the point in splitting hairs?

 

 


The reason for test tones is that they're readily available. And as I said, I left it as an open challenge for people to hear for themselves. If people do notice the difference on the Wikipedia link, I could take it one step farther. I could find some creative commons music samples and alter their pitch for ABX testing. That would more closely simulate the every day listening experience.

 

Although you do bring a good point about listening enjoyment. It's such a relative experience. For some, a scratchy $3 cassette tape is all they need. For others, it requires something a bit better. Sandisk has so far catered to that 'little bit better' crowd; look at ReplayGain, ID3v2.4, and FLAC support as examples. That's why it's so odd that Sandisk suddenly decides to pass on fixing the pitch bug.

 

 

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SanDisk Guru
Posts: 3,676
Registered: ‎12-04-2008

Re: Pitch bug on Clip+?


@schnarky42 wrote:

@Conversionbox wrote:

schnarky42 wrote: 

 

3) Many, including myself, have stated that the Clip+ is on the edge of a just noticable pitch difference. You say few people can detect this, but I challenge people on this forum to listen to these clips on Wikipedia and find out if they can tell the difference. Particularily the 'Six Cents' and 'Ten Cents' clips, as that's roughtly the pitch accuracy of the Clip+ right now.

 


Testing tones is one thing but the only test that matters is listening to the same things you listen to every day... your music your podcasts, whatever... If you hear a difference then you continue to look for answers but If you listen and honestly cant tell a difference when you listen to your favorite songs then you can move on to listening enjoyment. If the player is off but you cant hear that difference whats the point in splitting hairs?

 

 


The reason for test tones is that they're readily available. And as I said, I left it as an open challenge for people to hear for themselves. If people do notice the difference on the Wikipedia link, I could take it one step farther. I could find some creative commons music samples and alter their pitch for ABX testing. That would more closely simulate the every day listening experience.

 

Although you do bring a good point about listening enjoyment. It's such a relative experience. For some, a scratchy $3 cassette tape is all they need. For others, it requires something a bit better. Sandisk has so far catered to that 'little bit better' crowd; look at ReplayGain, ID3v2.4, and FLAC support as examples. That's why it's so odd that Sandisk suddenly decides to pass on fixing the pitch bug.

 

 


Thats precisely what I mean... If you need it to be prefect test the tones and some other stuff. If you just wanna listen to your music and you dont hear a difference to begin with then why bother. My thinking is this, If you test a tone first and hear a difference, your brain could cause you to hear a difference in your regular music, when in all actuality you probably never would have noticed without the tests. 

 


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