Pitch bug on Clip+?

@miikerman wrote:

And so, I ask politely, where is “the next firmware release due out this quarter”?  It’s been more than 2 quarters since …

 

Info. from SanDisk would be appreciated.

How long after the Fuze release was it before they said there would be no more updates for the e200’s?  I think the answer could lie there.

The pitch problem on the Clip has not been improved by any firmware released so far.

Is there any reason to think that problems with the Clip + will be handled any better?

The extra length of time the tracks play is of no concern to me, that is just a side affect of the fact that the songs are being played back at the wrong pitch.

Playing back music off pitch/out of tune bothers me a lot because I am a musician used to hearing things at proper pitch.

There is a reason musicians “tune up” before a performance.

While it is understood that most clip users are unsophisticated consumers that are not musicians or engineers,

there is also a vocal minority who are, and expect consumer products like the Clip to operate within reasonable tolerances.

Like playing back the music at the correct speed and pitch.

We are trying to keep the company honest for everyones benefit.

Basic.

They should fix this with a firmware update.

No excuses.

It’s that simple.

Any one who complains about some one else trying to get a problem resolved on the forum, is a troll or doesn’t understand the concept.

Either help or get out of the way.

Message Edited by wavydavy on 09-03-2009 01:56 PM

fuze_owner-GB wrote: 

 


Ha Ha Ha Ha…

 

I’ve worked at the design and manufacturing level.  I know how much they listen to the consumer.

 

Many here have a very false sense of self-importance.

 Ha HA yourself… the product was out nearly a year with this problem, then 2-3 days after hard confirmation and the cause is posted on the forum they have it fixed.  Dream on that it wasn’t in response to the forum.  Perhaps it was a known problem that was back-burnered, but they did respond to the forum.

 

Most everyplace I’ve worked valid complaints get attention.  Some go way overboard, running around like beheaded chickens when people who aren’t going to buy a product anyway say they would if only it did xxxx.

All of this ink for a lowly 'ol media player.

You can believe what you want, I will do the same.  No one will make me change my mind and it’s af little consequence…because there are a ton of more important things to worry about than a potential flaw in a product.

I see it now…you’ll be on your deathbed and instead of being concerned about meeting your maker, you’ll be worried about the pitch issue in a media player…

Carry on…

@wavydavy wrote:

The pitch problem on the Clip has not been improved by any firmware released so far.

Is there any reason to think that problems with the Clip + will be handled any better?

The extra length of time the tracks play is of no concern to me, that is just a side affect of the fact that the songs are being played back at the wrong pitch.

Playing back music off pitch/out of tune bothers me a lot because I am a musician used to hearing things at proper pitch.

There is a reason musicians “tune up” before a performance.

While it is understood that most clip users are unsophisticated consumers that are not musicians or engineers,

there is also a vocal minority who are, and expect consumer products like the Clip to operate within reasonable tolerances.

Like playing back the music at the correct speed and pitch.

We are trying to keep the company honest for everyones benefit.

Basic.

They should fix this with a firmware update.

No excuses.

It’s that simple.

 

Any one who complains about some one else trying to get a problem resolved on the forum, is a troll or doesn’t understand the concept.

Either help or get out of the way.

Message Edited by wavydavy on 09-03-2009 01:56 PM

I can appreciate that as I’m a musician too.  But, on the same token…just because it should be fixed doesn’t mean it will.

@fuze_owner_gb wrote:


@miikerman wrote:

And so, I ask politely, where is “the next firmware release due out this quarter”?  It’s been more than 2 quarters since …

 

Info. from SanDisk would be appreciated.


No offense, but isn’t it a bit early for a new firmware for the clip+?

Message Edited by fuze_owner-GB on 09-03-2009 04:35 PM

LOL–certainly (I mean, the Clip+ doesn’t officially come out until mid-month!).  The above was in reference to the original Clip, with SanDisk noting new firmware for the quarter over 6 months ago …

Message Edited by Miikerman on 09-03-2009 05:54 PM

@miikerman wrote:


@fuze_owner_gb wrote:


@miikerman wrote:

And so, I ask politely, where is “the next firmware release due out this quarter”?  It’s been more than 2 quarters since …

 

Info. from SanDisk would be appreciated.


No offense, but isn’t it a bit early for a new firmware for the clip+?

Message Edited by fuze_owner-GB on 09-03-2009 04:35 PM


Lol–certainly (I mean, the Clip+ doesn’t officially come out until mid-month!).  The above was in reference to the original Clip, with SanDisk noting new firmware for the quarter over 6 motnhs ago …

I know… I was just poking a little fun…:smileyvery-happy:

:slight_smile:

As you’ve seen, some already have asked about new Clip+ firmware!  Actually, that’s not fair of me:  as new users, they’ve just tried to make sure they have the latest firmware, as one always should do with a new product using software.

Has any one tested the Clip + to verify weather or not the pitch problem has been fixed for any/all formats and sample rates.

Here is why that is such an important question…

Let me explain in more detail.

Speed and time are related in music playback because when you play music at a faster speed, the song ends sooner and sounds as though it is being played at a higher pitch. (for an extreme example, think Alvin and the Chipmunks).

When a musical instrument is tuned up, it is done to an international standard reference.

for example the note A should be exactly 440 Hz.

The reason for this is so all musicians can play their instruments together wherever they travel, and have them sound good together (in tune with each other).

Thus, all properly recorded music played back at the correct pitch/speed should have the music be in tune (at the proper pitch) with any other properly tuned instruments.

The Clip plays back music at the wrong pitch/speed so that it is noticeably out of tune when compared to original recording played back on any other equipment.

This is most noticeable to people like me with critical listening skills, who play a musical instrument along with the music from the clip.

Jamming with the music coming from the clip is like playing two instruments that are out of tune with each other  :cry:

Unfortunately it is impractical to retune instruments to match them to the Clip, especially instruments like the piano. This also would require you to retune again for normal playing.

The reason the problem has gone unnoticed by most people is, that they would not normally play the Clip in an environment where they could also hear the correct version at the same time to compare to, and they don’t play a musical instrument along with it, to compare to.

So you see that it is not the change in playback time that bothers me, as much as the “off pitch/out of tune with the rest of the world” problem which is unacceptable to me and which could be fixed by Sansa with a firmware update.

No other portable Mp3 or CD player I’m aware of has this problem, and I have had quite a few over the years.

I hope this explanation helps non musicians appreciate how serious this problem is for us, and why we are so vocal about it.

After all, We are the people who make the music you might like to enjoy listening to on your Clip.

Throw us a bone :wink:

I have found that the pitch issue with the earlier devices is less irritable when dealing with gravitational variations and wormholes.  I’m used to little pitch variations, though my rapidly advancing grey, my wife assures me, is probably more affected by long term radiation exposure than speed.

Sansafix tinkered with the available timing multipliers for the Sansa’s processor, and found a happy medium, after it was pointed out here on the forums.  Getting the change incorporated into all of the AMS device families most likely involves more steps, as other updates fall into line for each model, and the requisite testing / approval process.

The new Clip Plus has been one of those additional families, we now see.  I’d bet that they can now concentrate on the base Clip, in both revisions.  Lots of wee hurdles to handle.

I am confident that the timing will be corrected on the existing Clips, especially since a working change has been tested.  Don’t forget that projects and priorities happen in the background, evidenced by the latest new toy!

Bob  :smileyvery-happy:

And an occasional (monthly, every other month) word from Sansa firmware development team, about progress, delays, or changes in priority, is forbidden, why?

@wavydavy wrote:
And an occasional (monthly, every other month) word from Sansa firmware development team, about progress, delays, or changes in priority, is forbidden, why?

It’s not uncommon for companies to have policies controlling the sharing of this kind of information in user forums.  What SanDisk’s exact policies are, we don’t know.

Well, for anyone interested here’s my quantified pitch results. All are taken from the headphone out of each respective player to the analog in of my soundcard (Audigy 2 ZS Notebook). Feel free to try and replicate my results using the setup I’ll list below.

Two files, a 445hz tone and a 1000hz tone, both MP3 and FLAC tested, encoded with and without replaygain, were played on the following devices. Results are:

445hz

Dell D630c (laptop) - plays 445.01hz

Sansa E200           - plays 445.18hz

Rio Karma              - Plays 445.21hz

Sansa Clip+           - plays 446.10hz

1000hz

Dell D630c (laptop) - plays 1000.02hz

Sansa E200           - plays 1000.39hz

Rio Karma             - plays 1000.48hz

Sansa Clip+           - plays 1002.47hz

That gives Sansa clip a pitch error of 0.247%, compared to the next player (Rio Karma) at 0.048%.


Setup

1.)Here’s the software setup: Plogue Bidule + VST Plugin Gtune, WAV tones created using NCH Tone Gen, then encoded via FLAC

2.) In NCH I created continuous, stereo tones for 30 seconds. You can then save the files as WAV and ecode them using the FLAC front-end app.

3.)In bidule, make sure you’ve copied the gtune vst plugin to the vst plugin directory (program files\plogue\bidule\vst plugins). When it loads, you’ll need to 1). Remove any sound input/outputs, 2.) Add a duplex audio device, and 3.) Add the gtune vst plugin. This can all be done by right clicking in bidule and accessing the menu that pops-up. Then it’s just a matter of connecting each device as shown here, and making sure bidule is processing (there’s an ‘on’ or ‘off’ indicator in the top menu of bidule).

4.)Double-clicking on the ‘gtune’ vst plugin that you addded, brings up it’s processing window. When you play the headphone output into your soundcard, granted you’ve setup everything, you should get something like this. You can also double-click on the mixer and make sure you’re getting a signal.

*And if you’re wondering, I’m returning my clip+ to BB tomorrow.

Message Edited by schnarky42 on 09-04-2009 04:35 AM

Message Edited by schnarky42 on 09-04-2009 04:40 AM

@schnarky42 wrote:

 

1000hz

Dell D630c (laptop) - plays 1000.02hz

Sansa E200           - plays 1000.39hz

Rio Karma             - plays 1000.48hz

Sansa Clip+           - plays 1002.47hz

 

That gives Sansa clip a pitch error of 0.247%, compared to the next player (Rio Karma) at 0.048%.


 

 

It looks like it did get improved over the original V1 clip.  I measured a 1000 Hz tone as playing back at 1007 Hz, so +0.7%.  Some others measured the same percent error by various means.   

All the players I had available were consistent with your findings… battery powered ones on the order of 10x closer than (original) clip, and AC powered ones (CD and DVD players) another leap closer yet.

Message Edited by donp on 09-04-2009 10:35 AM

any idea of the results for the original clip?  I’ld also be curious to see what the results for the ipod would be.

@tipsypenguin wrote:
any idea of the results for the original clip?  I’ld also be curious to see what the results for the ipod would be.

donp’s results are from the v1 clip. User daytona955 also did some tests on the fuze v1 here. Both have the pitch bug. Any ipod would need to be tested in a similar way to what others and I have done.

It’s quite sad that the Clip excels at so many things, except playing the actual music.

Well Sansa?  When are you going to answer this thread finally?

@schnarky42 wrote:


@tipsypenguin wrote:
any idea of the results for the original clip?  I’ld also be curious to see what the results for the ipod would be.


donp’s results are from the v1 clip. User daytona955 also did some tests on the fuze v1 here. Both have the pitch bug. Any ipod would need to be tested in a similar way to what others and I have done.

In the interest of accuracy…yes, the Fuze did have it, but it was fixed with a firmware update…so Sansa does know how to fix it.

Thanks for doing the tests Donp.

I assume you used Mp3 encoded at 44.1 sample rate.

I wonder what the error is for Mp3 at 48 kHz sample rate?

Other sample rates?

Other file types… flac.  ogg. wav.?

If you can hear a beat frequency (the sound of two tones out of tune with each other) when playing 1000 Hz and 1002.47 Hz tones at the same time, then the Clip + is likely to sound off pitch when played with an instrument.

I’m not sure yet if this is close enough for my purposes.

I wonder if they tried to fix it with firmware or if they changed the clock freq of the Xtal?

Amazing that Sansa can’t do better in this area that everyone else seems to get right.

This flies in the face of the claims of superior audio playback quality.

One of the Clips purported strong selling points is actually not true!

It is sad that Sansa no longer provides feedback on these issues.

I guess to save costs, they fired the last English speaking employee they had.

Happened to me at an electronics job I had in California.

Foreigners bought the company and fired all the local workers and replaced them with immigrants, fresh off the boat.

Not one of them could speak a word of English.

The company went under shortly after that.

Good luck Sansa