Can you please help me in deciding between Fuze, Clip+ and E270?

Thanks!

Ok, I must confess, I have read many posts here (I see that, finally, you all are always the same guys answering, congratulations), ABI, Head-Fi… And a few reviews.

Anyway, I still would like to understand (maybe you already told me, but please repeat). Also, please, answer about your direct first person knowledge of the devices… I need real comparison, I don´t care about nominal superiority of the new processor. I do not need a “this is better” but a explication of the differences. So I can decide in the shop, according on the preice I will get. IE, in this moment a Clip+ 4Gb would costs me 10US$ more than a Fuze 8gb (no idea if V1 or 2), and a Clip+8gb would costs 27US$ more… Tomorrow I will check availibility and prices of other shops.

  1. I own, actually, just a pair of economic Phillips SHS8000 IEM, 16ohms, 102db, 6-23.500 hz, 50mW. I have read that they are considered very good for the price. But I tell you, to let you know which IEM I will use. No Shure or luxury ones. For now.

  2. what REALLY changes in SQ between Clip+, Faze V1, and Faze V2 (and how do I know, when I am to buy a Faze, if it is V1 or 2)?

  3. THis “warmer sound” of Clip+, is something good or it is just a polite way to say that it lacks of highs and basses and it is not crispy and transparent? I believe that JK said Clip was too bright, CLip+ not enough bright, Fuze is the best. Is it right? I do not like metallic sound or eq where high and bass are so exagerated that vocals sound terribly. But I do like crispy highs, and good, present, basses, and a definite transparent clear and deep sound (yes, I shuld get better IEM, but let´s start from player).

  4. I am a hard shuffler. I quite never look for a specific song or listen to an entire album. I generally shuffle all my music, all genres, to be surprised. I have read somewhere that Clip had better shuffle functionthan Fuze. What about CLip+? My generic MP4 pick up the same songs all the time!!!

  5. concretely, for those who owned E200v1 and now own Fuze and/or Clip+: how does the E200v1 with Rockbox sound compared to CLip+ and Fuze?

Message Edited by San_Discolo on 01-24-2010 09:07 PM

I am very interested in this, because I finally found that I can only get Clip+ and FUze here. Among E200 I can only get E270, so, rockbox or nothing.

My question would be, which sounds better, finally, Fuze, or CLip+?

I was reading that many people love Rockbox, should I prefer E270 only to be able to Use Rockbox even if it souds a bit worse?

As I said in the other thread several times, all of them have identical output except the e200v1.

The biggest difference you will hear will be between the later devices and the e270 (v1), since it is running with a completely different processor.

The earlier v1 e200 devices sound pretty decent, though most folks can readily pick up on the differences when they step over to the newer players.  The functions of Rockbox are quite popular with v1 users, as saratoga can attest, and enhancements continue, even for the later Sansas.

As to the reported differences in sound quality with the various current models, these differences are indeed subjective, and more subtle.  The new devices are pretty close in sound quality, with the largest differences being overall features (size / controls / battery life).

µsansa

I have owned, and used for a long time, E260v1 and a Fuzev1, and I bought a Clip+ because of the good reviews.

I sent the Clip+ back. It simply does not sound as good as the Fuze.  I really wanted to like it, but my ears kept telling me otherwise.

Frankly I don’t think it sounds any better than the E260v1, possibly worse. 

It has an audible peak in the midrange–to make vocals pop out–and it has a narrower soundstage, which is to say that the music just sounds more three-dimensional and natural on the Fuze. 

I carry the Fuze around in a shirt or jacket pocket all the time. I take it to the gym. It’s not fragile. 

Obviously you can’t put it in a back pocket where you’d sit on it. You might–just might–be able to do that with a Clip+.  I don’t think that’s worth the decrease in sound quality or battery life. 

The Fuze has a higher power output than the Clip+. This will make the Fuze sound better than the Clip+, especially if you are using less efficient headphones. The Clip is brighter sounding than the Clip+, with the Fuze being between the two. The differences are small though. Imo the Clip was a bit too bright though, with the Fuze being the best balanced of the three. It is important to use headphones 32 ohms or under to get decent sound from the Clip, Clip+, or Fuze, with efficient 16 ohm earphones being the best choice(the lowest impedance headphones I have seen is the 24 ohm Sony V900HD9(7509HD). Anyone here know of a 16 ohm circumaural headphones?

@jk98 wrote:
The Clip is brighter sounding than the Clip+,

This is simply not true:

http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons/Sansa%20Clip%20vs.%20Clip+%20(No%20Loads,%2016%20Ohm%20Loads).htm 

JK98 wrote: 
It is important to use headphones 32 ohms or under to get decent sound from the Clip, Clip+, or Fuze, with efficient 16 ohm earphones being the best choice(the lowest impedance headphones I have seen is the 24 ohm Sony V900HD9(7509HD). Anyone here know of a 16 ohm circumaural headphones?

  

I’ve seen you say this before:

http://anythingbutipod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46648

And I (and others) told you it was stupid then.  Its arguably more stupid now that you know its wrong. 

I realize you want to help, but if you’re less informed then the person asking questions, its probably better that you not try to give advice.   Making up answers isn’t helpful.

(On a side-note:  nix on the stupid comments, please?  People can have off days, or just be mistaken …   ;)  )

"JK98 wrote: The Clip is brighter sounding than the Clip+, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is simply not true: http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons/Sansa%20Clip%20vs.%20Clip+%20(No%20Loads,%2016%20Ohm%20Loads).htm "

Did you read the review of the Clip+ on Amythingbutipod.com? I am not the only one who feels that the Clip+ sounds different than the Clip.

As for the Clip+ and Fuze not properly powering headphones over 32 ohms, that is what I observed using the headphones I own. The Fuze and clip+ don’t work that well with the Sony V6 Sennheiser HD545,  Koss A200 and Portapro. I have heard much better sound using those headphones connected to other more powerful sounces.  On the Fuze and Clip+ I need  to have the volume set at maximum or close to it, and sometimes there isn’t enough volume. While higher impedance headphones might be okay with the Fuze and Clip+ using a supplemental headphone amp, most people don’t want to have to use one.

Perhaps you  will tell me that it was just my imagination that I often didn’t get enough volume with these headphones?

@miikerman wrote:
(On a side-note:  nix on the stupid comments, please?  People can have off days, or just be mistaken …   ;)  )

Its not an off day when its everyday and its not being mistaken when you have no idea what you’re talking about.

@jk98 wrote:

 

Did you read the review of the Clip+ on Amythingbutipod.com? I am not the only one who feels that the Clip+ sounds different than the Clip.

 

 I didn’t say you’re the only one whos wrong about this.  Just that you should know better since you’ve had it quite patiently explained to you how these things work in the past.  You have no excuse for being so clueless.

JK98 wrote: 

 

As for the Clip+ and Fuze not properly powering headphones over 32 ohms, that is what I observed using the headphones I own. The Fuze and clip+ don’t work that well with the Sony V6 Sennheiser HD545,  Koss A200 and Portapro.

 

If you’ve got a real difference, post the RMAA results.  Because the tests I linked show no difference!  If you’ve got one at 32 ohms it should be very easy to show.

Look I’ll even go again. Heres another set of tests:

http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons/Comparison%20-%20Sansa%20Clip%20-%2012%20-%2048%20Ohm.htm 

Note that the low impedance headphones all work worse then high impedance.  If you’ve got so many pairs of headphones where this isn’t the case, please test them and share with the community. 

Of course you won’t do this because you realize you’re wrong already and are just trying to save face.  

JK98 wrote: 

 

 I have heard much better sound using those headphones connected to other more powerful sounces.  On the Fuze and Clip+ I need  to have the volume set at maximum or close to it, and sometimes there isn’t enough volume. While higher impedance headphones might be okay with the Fuze and Clip+ using a supplemental headphone amp, most people don’t want to have to use one.

 

  

You’ve confusing impedance with sensitivity.  With lower sensitivity headphones, you might need an amp.  With lower sensitivity headphones you might need to turn the volume up more.  Going from 16 ohm to 32 ohm drops the volume 3dB.  Thats nothing!  The threshold of detectability is usually around 1 dB for most people.  But that doesn’t mean lower impedance works better.  It doesn’t as I’ve shown above.  It just means that if you get headphones that need an amp, you might need to get an amp.  But you can still easily drive higher impedance headphones provided you pick ones with suitable sensitivity such that an amp isn’t needed.  And in fact doing so will give you slightly better performance then going with very low impedance headphones.

But really, this brings us back to my original point:  you don’t even know what impedance is, so why are you giving advice about it?

JK98 wrote: 

 

 

Perhaps you  will tell me that it was just my imagination that I often didn’t get enough volume with these headphones?

 

 

  

 Honestly, given the other things you’ve said, I wouldn’t be surprised if its because you haven’t found the volume knob.  

saratoga wrote:


@miikerman wrote:
(On a side-note:  nix on the stupid comments, please?  People can have off days, or just be mistaken …   ;)  )

Its not an off day when its everyday and its not being mistaken when you have no idea what you’re talking about.

But my simple point, no need to call a person or his comment stupid …  (And the poster, by the way, explains and stands by his comments, as he notes above.)  Life is so much more civil without.   :wink:

We can do without the personal attacks. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and there are constructive ways to disagree without name calling. Please keep it civil.

 

Forum Admin

slotmonsta 

@miikerman wrote:

@saratoga wrote:


@miikerman wrote:
(On a side-note:  nix on the stupid comments, please?  People can have off days, or just be mistaken …   ;)  )

Its not an off day when its everyday and its not being mistaken when you have no idea what you’re talking about.


But my simple point, no need to call a person or his comment stupid …  (And the poster, by the way, explains and stands by his comments, as he notes above.)  Life is so much more civil without.   :wink:

Of course, but I didn’t call anyone stupid.  I said his argument is stupid because its already been disproved earlier.  Theres a very big difference between saying “thats a stupid argument for the following well established reasons . . .” and “you’re stupid”.  

That said I did call him “clueless” but honestly if you argue about impedance without actually knowing what it is, I think thats less an insult that an observation of fact :slight_smile:


Message Edited by drlucky on 01-25-2010 06:16 PM

“You’ve confusing impedance with sensitivity.  With lower sensitivity headphones, you might need an amp.  With lower sensitivity headphones you might need to turn the volume up more.  Going from 16 ohm to 32 ohm drops the volume 3dB.  Thats nothing!  The threshold of detectability is usually around 1 dB for most people.  But that doesn’t mean lower impedance works better.  It doesn’t as I’ve shown above.  It just means that if you get headphones that need an amp, you might need to get an amp.  But you can still easily drive higher impedance headphones provided you pick ones with suitable sensitivity such that an amp isn’t needed.  And in fact doing so will give you slightly better performance then going with very low impedance headphones.”

It isn’t just about the impedance of the headphones though.

Impedance total= output impedance of player * headphone impedance/(output impedance of player + headphone impedance) The greatest amount of power is transfered when the headphone impedance matches the output impedance of the player.

Higher impedance headphones also tend to have a lower sensitivity.

Message Edited by JK98 on 01-25-2010 07:07 PM

saratoga wrote:

Of course, but I didn’t call anyone stupid.  I said his argument is stupid because its already been disproved earlier.  Theres a very big difference between saying “thats a stupid argument for the following well established reasons . . .” and “you’re stupid”.

Sometimes, those distinctions can be missed …  Just better, it sees to me, to explain the underlying rationale. as you had done.  But the point’s been made–thanks.  And now, back to our regularly-scheduled programming.   :wink:

@jk98 wrote:

 

It isn’t just about the impedance of the headphones though.

 

 

For mp3 players the output impedance is pretty small, so really only the headphone impedance matters.  Most people tend to ignore it, although over at ABI we discussed this in detail a while back.

JK98 wrote: 

 

Impedance total= output impedance of player * headphone impedance/(output impedance of player + headphone impedance)

 

 

Actually, for an mp3 player the way we talk about impedance you should be using the Thévenin model, not the Norton model (although your formula would work for other types of amplifiers, which is why i’m guessing it came up when you googled amplifiers).  The Norton model won’t work so well because you can’t measure the short circuit current (the DAC will cut you off to prevent you from damaging it).

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thévenin’s_theorem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton’s_theorem

Using the proper model, the impedance is actually calculated like so: 

Impedance total= output impedance of player + headphone impedance 

On ABI I calculated the output impedance of the Clip using dfkt’s measurements.  Its about 1.6 ohms, quite small compared to the 16-64 ohms typically used in headphones, and so you can safely ignore it.

JK98 wrote: 

 

The greatest amount of power is transfered when the headphone impedance matches the output impedance of the player. 
 

 

  

This is a common misconception.  Its actually completely wrong for these amplifiers, which is why the output impedance of the CLip is 1.6ohms and not 16 ohms :) 

Instead you maximize power transfer by having the smallest possible output resistance.  Ideally it would be zero, in which case the clip would transfer 100% of its power to the headphones.  Instead, with headphones at 16 ohms it transfers 91% of its power to the load.  Conversely, if it had 16 ohms output, and 16 ohm headphones, just 50% of its power would be transferred.  Not very good at all!

Interestingly, efficiency actually increases for larger impedance headphones.   For 32 ohm headphones, over 95% of the output power goes into the headphones (and at 64 ohms, nearly 98% goes)!

drlucky wrote:

Message Edited by drlucky on 01-25-2010 03:29 PM

Heyyyy! That’s a derogatory term now and _ so _ not PC (No, not computer, but politically correct). These people have ‘special needs’, they’re not (what it says). Even the Prez had to back-pedal & apologize for his remark about how he bowled as if he were in the Special Olympics. He got flamed big-time.

I think Carlos Mencia says it best . .

9_insults_carlos_mencia_dee.gif Flashing Dee Dee Dee image by Mak213TF

Let’s see, we started with…

And we end up with…

Such good sport!  I think that Fuze is sounding better by the minute.  As you can see, my favorite companion is the e200 with Macally soft leather phones.

Bob  :stuck_out_tongue: