Confirmed - Micro SD Load Problems due to aac file load failures

@gph wrote:

Saratoga,

 

Thanks for the quick reply.  To your comments I offer my replies.

 

Unsurprising, since all modern AAC files use that container.

 

The 13 aac files I tested were created in iTunes as it turns out and not by MAX, as MAX produces files with a different container signature as my previous post outlined.  MAX does not use that  mp42 MP4 v2 container. 

 

Regardless of whatever that tool you’re using reports, all of these files are in ISO 14496-14 as that is the MP4 container required for AAC.  If it was otherwise they wouldn’t work in iTunes either :slight_smile:  

Most likely that tool is just reading ftyp atom out of the file, which basically is just the encoders way of saying what it was trying to make and can take almost any value.  I would not read too much into it.

If you follow the complete thread, you’ll see that the 13 aac files I used for my tests were created as aac files in iTunes and not by MAX,

Are you certain they’re plain iTunes files?  Above you did not mention using iTunes to create those files, and also said that your library is a mixture of iTunes, MAX and downloaded files.  Not saying you made a mistake, but if files don’t work I’d suspect theres something special about them.  

saratoga,

I stand by my test results and not by your suppositions that my tool that shows container signatures must not work right or that my 13 test files must not be iTunes created files when in fact they are.

Do you work for SanDisk Customer Support? It sure sounds like it. Your responses sound like somthing they would say. Denial there is an issue here.

I look forward to drlucky’s response at this point.  That could actually be helpful and constructive.

GPH

@gph wrote:

 

I stand by my test results and not by your suppositions that my tool that shows container signatures must not work right

I didn’t say it didn’t work right, I just pointed out that it doesn’t mean much :slight_smile:

@gph wrote:

or that my 13 test files must not be iTunes created files when in fact they are.

 

I didn’t say that either, I asked if you could confirm that they were.  

@gph wrote:

 

Do you work for SanDisk Customer Support? It sure sounds like it. Your responses sound like somthing they would say. Denial there is an issue here.

ahahahahaha wow

sandisk support confirmed the issue with  MPEG4 codec mp42 version 2  and said it is not supported. 

@drlucky wrote:

sandisk support confirmed the issue with  MPEG4 codec mp42 version 2  and said it is not supported. 

I think they confirmed that they had a problem with Microsoft’s AAC encoder.  I haven’t heard them say anything about iTunes AAC files.  If they really didn’t support either WMP or iTunes encoded files that would exclude almost all existing AAC files.  Its hard to imagine they wouldn’t have noticed that sooner.  

@saratoga wrote:


@drlucky wrote:

sandisk support confirmed the issue with  MPEG4 codec mp42 version 2  and said it is not supported. 


I think they confirmed that they had a problem with Microsoft’s AAC encoder.  I haven’t heard them say anything about iTunes AAC files.  If they really didn’t support either WMP or iTunes encoded files that would exclude almost all existing AAC files.  Its hard to imagine they wouldn’t have noticed that sooner.  

 

 

Correct Itunes AAC is supported. 

I knew there was a reason why I’ve always encoded to the universal and trouble-free MP3 format . . . .    :wink:

@drlucky wrote:


@saratoga wrote:


@drlucky wrote:

sandisk support confirmed the issue with  MPEG4 codec mp42 version 2  and said it is not supported. 


I think they confirmed that they had a problem with Microsoft’s AAC encoder.  I haven’t heard them say anything about iTunes AAC files.  If they really didn’t support either WMP or iTunes encoded files that would exclude almost all existing AAC files.  Its hard to imagine they wouldn’t have noticed that sooner.  

 

 


Correct Itunes AAC is supported. 

Yes I thought so.  With that in mind I’m going to repeat what I said above.  If the original poster has files from iTunes that don’t play, and iTunes files are expected to play he should probably try and figure out whats special about those files.  My guess is that they actually weren’t encoded by iTunes, or if they were they were subsequently processed by some other program that rewrote the original iTunes MP4 container in such a way that it broke the files.  Knowing exactly how this happened could be useful.  

1st off let me start by saying I love my Clip Zip (CZ). It is a great alternative to the iPod for those of us that want a simple MP3 player that is small and convenient. 2nd I want to thank GPH so much for posting the same problem I had with my CZ and for posting your research to support your findings. I searched the Internet like crazy trying to find out what the problem was with my CZ and why I couldn’t load my music. My thoughts went from a bad memory card to a bad CZ player. Luckily I also got my wife a CZ the same time I ordered mine and tested hers and still had the same problem. Finally I stumbled upon your post with similar results to my own. Thank you again.

I took the research a step further and reviewed my music using Mp3tag v2.49. You stated that the CZ doesn’t play AAC format files even though it was stated by SanDisk. I checked the Codec tags of my music and saw that about half of it was in AAC iTunes version “X”, where X would be whatever version of iTunes I had at the time that converted my music to AAC format as I added music to my iTunes library. I used iTunes back in the day when I had an iPod but no longer rely on that as my MP3 player since I found my CZ.

I also checked the tags in Windows for my music. I saw the same result where half of my music was in MP3 the other in AAC but one thing I also noticed was that some were M4P or protected music I had in my library. I had about 20 to 30 songs that I either got from iTunes or from CDs ripped. I forgot to rip those CDs to MP3 format instead of ripping them on the default setting of M4P.

I took my MicroSD card out of my CZ and put it back into my PC. I did a search for M4P music on my SD card and found that 20 – 30 tracks from different artist were in M4P format and AAC tagged. I removed all M4P music from that card and reinserted the card into my CZ. The card finally loaded on my CZ and my music played without any issues.  It took about 3 mins to load or so b/c I have a 32GB card of which 20GB is full of music. Those files are still in AAC format on the card but the M4P music was removed. Since the music is protected I don’t think the SanDisk can play it and doesn’t know what to do with the files as it tries to refresh its media causing the player to freeze and then crash prompting a reboot. Try checking your internal and external storage for any M4P or protected music. If you find any of these files try to remove them from your card 1st and try reinserting your card back into your CZ to see if there is a different result. If successful try adding the rest of your unprotected AAC music to your card and see if it will load your music again.

If you bought any music from the iTunes store I can almost guarantee you that it is protected and Apple will not authorize you to play this music on any other device except your authorized iPod or other authorized equipment such as an iPad, iPhone etc.

With the M4P music I had problems playing it on iTunes (b/c some of that music I got from a friend’s library and they would need to log in to my iTunes account to play it), Winamp, Zune and Windows Media player.

There are ways around this. You can take the music on your PC that is M4P and use software to convert it to MP3 or you can burn your M4P music to a CD then recopy that burned music in MP3 format back on your PC.

Lastly, if you don’t want any of your music in AAC format you can use iTunes to convert your current unprotected AAC format music from AAC to MP3. iTunes will just make a 2nd copy keeping the original AAC but adding a MP3 copy as well. Careful for you can double the size of you library so make sure you have the space to do this. Also always have a backup in case something goes wrong before you start that process.

Hope this helps.

CincyJr

Actually, as to iTunes and DRM: current iTunes music is not DRM-protected; Apple stopped using DRM for music in early 2009, and so music bought from that point forward from iTunes is DRM-free. (The Apple change of policy did not affect music purchased earlier from Apple, however; although I believe that you also can convert your DRM-protected tunes to DRM-free tunes, for an extra fee.)

CincyJr,

It’s good to hear from another CZ owner with some concerns about SanDisk’s spotty M4A (AAC) support.

Out of 3100 songs, I had about 32 M4P files that were from some of my few iTunes purchases back in the day when everything was protected.  I also found I had about 24 newer iTunes downloads that were not protected. These were M4A files.  I found a way to convert the M4P’s to M4A files, but I found M4A files themselves were an issue, so I gave up on M4A and converted all M4A files to MP3’s. Once I went to all MP3’s I was able to put 29GB of songs on my 32GB card and this left the player’s 4GB for everything else, like podcasts, audio books, and recordings.

ITunes has an option to import files as either M4A’s or MP3’s.  I was using M4A as my import choice, but the issues I encountered with the Sansa not finishing the refresh when the M4A files were loaded to the card forced me to rethink this choice.  It is easy to mass convert the M4A files to MP3’s in iTunes, so I went down the path of least resistance to resolving this problem.  Use MP3 format and be done with it.

I don’t have the time to debug the flawed M4A file handling that the Sansa ClipZip exhibits.  Just recognize there are iTunes aac (M4A) issues and steer around them with MP3 format.  I wasted enough time trying to get SanDisk to acknowledge the aac(M4A) support issues and work towards a fix, but they were still in denial and said my card must be bad. 

I have since loaded all my 3100+ songs to the card thinking I will put all podcasts, audio books and recordings on the player’s memory.  I thought this approach would minimize the player refresh cycle when any content changed.  The podcasts get added and deleted regularly, so I wanted to keep refresh cycle times to a minimum.  I am disappointed to report that any adds or deletes to the player memory result in player refresh cycles that still take over 10 minutes with the almost full memory card still inserted.  I guess SanDisk would say it takes that long because I have so many songs on the card, but I think their refresh routine is inefficiently written assuming a much smaller memory footprint than most people will ultimately try and use with this player.  Your use case appears similar to mine.  You are using the 32GB card like I am.  Adding or deleting a few podcasts to the player should not take over ten minutes to update the players “database”.

That is unfortunately the situation, even using all mp3 files.  What is your file count and what are your refresh times like?  How are your files spread (player memory versus card)?

GPH

@gph wrote:

I have since loaded all my 3100+ songs to the card thinking I will put all podcasts, audio books and recordings on the player’s memory.  I thought this approach would minimize the player refresh cycle when any content changed.  The podcasts get added and deleted regularly, so I wanted to keep refresh cycle times to a minimum.  I am disappointed to report that any adds or deletes to the player memory result in player refresh cycles that still take over 10 minutes with the almost full memory card still inserted.  I guess SanDisk would say it takes that long because I have so many songs on the card, but I think their refresh routine is inefficiently written assuming a much smaller memory footprint than most people will ultimately try and use with this player.  Your use case appears similar to mine.  You are using the 32GB card like I am.  Adding or deleting a few podcasts to the player should not take over ten minutes to update the players “database”.

 

That is unfortunately the situation, even using all mp3 files.  What is your file count and what are your refresh times like?  How are your files spread (player memory versus card)?

 

GPH

 

Over the last two weeks, I’ve had to use my Zip as my podcast player…my desktop was down so I had no iTunes to load my podcasts onto my iPod. So, I used Mediamonkey on my netbook and subscribed to most of the podcasts so I could keep up. After the second day, I took my microsd card out of it. Even though my refresh times are under 4 minutes (16GB card, 8GB internal) it still wasn’t worth dealing with twice a day when loading podcasts. On Monday when I am done hooking up the desktop again, I’ll put the card back in the Zip…but not before.

And for anyone who wonders why I didn’t just use my Clip+ for the podcasts…it’s because with Rockbox, there’s a trick where you fill the internal memory just about to capacity, and it lets you delete the factory folders. When you disconnect from the computer, you get the “please delete 30MB blah blah blah” message for about 2 seconds and then the player shuts down. Restart, and the player is ready to go…and you never see a database refresh at all, provided you keep the internal memory crammed full…so full it stays. I think last time I swapped content on it, which was yesterday, the properties showed me that I have 1.5MB free…lol.

If my desktop ever goes down again, I’ll try a different approach…I’ll clear space off my Zune HD and try subscribing to the podcasts with the Zune software,which is on my netbook. iPods and Zunes aren’t very popular here, but there’s no database refresh times with them.:stuck_out_tongue:

I hope Sandisk really puts in the effort to fix the M4A issue before adding new features (as tracked in another thread).   “AAC compatible” was a HUGE reason in my purchase decision.  I did not want to waste time converting all my iTune collection to mp3 (btw, converting to MP3 is not a solution to a problem ticket).  Hence the “AAC compatible” was what sold me on the upgrade from Sansa Clip.

Now I find out it does not work as advertised, as none of my M4A files work even after the 1.0…17 patch upgrade.  The player continue to get stuck on reindex. Ultimately I gave up and removed all the M4A files from the player.  I honestly need to know if Sandisk intend to fix what they promised.

@sevenup wrote:

I hope Sandisk really puts in the effort to fix the M4A issue before adding new features (as tracked in another thread).   “AAC compatible” was a HUGE reason in my purchase decision.  I did not want to waste time converting all my iTune collection to mp3 (btw, converting to MP3 is not a solution to a problem ticket).  Hence the “AAC compatible” was what sold me on the upgrade from Sansa Clip.

 

Now I find out it does not work as advertised, as none of my M4A files work even after the 1.0…17 patch upgrade.  The player continue to get stuck on reindex. Ultimately I gave up and removed all the M4A files from the player.  I honestly need to know if Sandisk intend to fix what they promised.

keep in mind aac support is for nonDRM itunes files. if you ahve a non DRM itunes AAC file that causes issues post it here so we can take a look at the file. 

@sevenup wrote:

I hope Sandisk really puts in the effort to fix the M4A issue before adding new features (as tracked in another thread).   “AAC compatible” was a HUGE reason in my purchase decision.  I did not want to waste time converting all my iTune collection to mp3 (btw, converting to MP3 is not a solution to a problem ticket).  Hence the “AAC compatible” was what sold me on the upgrade from Sansa Clip.

 

Now I find out it does not work as advertised, as none of my M4A files work even after the 1.0…17 patch upgrade.  The player continue to get stuck on reindex. Ultimately I gave up and removed all the M4A files from the player.  I honestly need to know if Sandisk intend to fix what they promised.

How are you transferring files to the Clip?  A Mac can create ghost files that will choke a player.  The solution:  use Internet freeware Hidden Cleaner or KopyMac to transfer the files. 

@miikerman wrote:

How are you transferring files to the Clip?  A Mac can create ghost files that will choke a player.  The solution:  use Internet freeware Hidden Cleaner or KopyMac to transfer the files. 

I  do my file transfers from finder on my mac.  I also do this with my Kindle 3 and it does not choke or experience refresh delays that you even notice when you move and remove content in this manner.  If what you say is true, shouldn’t SanDisk put a little asterisk by the MacOS listing in their Minimum System Requirement that says: 

Windows® XP SP2, Mac OS® X 10.3 and Linux (Mass Storage Class only)?

The asterisk could mention this solution to use your suggested Internet freeware Hidden Cleaner or KopyMac to transfer the files if you are on a Mac if that really makes a difference.  Does SanDisk endorse this solution? I’m not sure I want to explore this yet if they don’t.  Who on these forums is their official spokesperson?

GPH

Miikerman:  

my OS is windows XP, I use the provided USB-to-microUSB under the MTP(?) mode. It shows up under windows as a portable device with access to internal and external storage.  I used windows explore to copy the files over.  I tried using a small sample of my mp3/m4a collection. It always stuck on the m4a reindex (if i remove it, indexing always suceeds).

drlucky:

I appreciate the offer to examing the mp3 files, but since iTune seems to encode my information into the music files, I’m alittle reluctant to post them.  I know then I don’t seem to help my own case under the circumstance by not posting them.

My thought:

The current firmware really gives a bad impression of the unit.  Look at the comments on Amazon, people misdiagnose thinking its card issue or the unit is faulty and return to Amazon for replacement.  Ultimately, they leave reviews that either leave people hesistant or steer them away (most people are not technical, and is not willing to chase down the cause like many here. They simply pick something else).

To help troubleshooting, the firmware really need to:

  1. While re-indexing, if encounter issue, capture the error and move on so the unit stays working (even if its just with only mp3 indexed).

  2. The result of the re-index should generate a log of the status containing any errors encountered during reindexing.  This should be log then user can provide Sandisk for troubleshooting purpose (instead of having to post files, Sandisk should be able to work with the detailed in the error/exception)

  3. Allow manual Re-Index.  It can stay under the system manu, with 2 options:

     3a.  Reindex All

     3b.  Reindex Updates (any new file since last index)

    This options should work well with suggestion #1.  While #1 allows people to continue to use the unit, #3 allows a way to reindex after an updated firmware is issued.

@gph wrote:


@miikerman wrote:

How are you transferring files to the Clip?  A Mac can create ghost files that will choke a player.  The solution:  use Internet freeware Hidden Cleaner or KopyMac to transfer the files. 


I  do my file transfers from finder on my mac.  I also do this with my Kindle 3 and it does not choke or experience refresh delays that you even notice when you move and remove content in this manner.  If what you say is true, shouldn’t SanDisk put a little asterisk by the MacOS listing in their Minimum System Requirement that says: 

 

Windows® XP SP2, Mac OS® X 10.3 and Linux (Mass Storage Class only)?

 

The asterisk could mention this solution to use your suggested Internet freeware Hidden Cleaner or KopyMac to transfer the files if you are on a Mac if that really makes a difference.  Does SanDisk endorse this solution? I’m not sure I want to explore this yet if they don’t.  Who on these forums is their official spokesperson?

 

 

GPH

 

I’m not a Mac guy and am not sure how finder works–I just know that it’s a known and reported issue/event that when a Mac is used to transfer files to non-Apple devices such as audio players and cameras, the ghost files (Mac admin. files, apparently) that get created and put on the device can choke it. 

I don’t know that SanDisk has “endorsed” these third-party softwares, but they have been discussed here many times as a solution to the Mac-created ghost files issue.  And the 2 softwares have been widely available and found reliable/as good solutions.  (Note:  KopyMac may have been discontinued, although perhaps still available.)

Note that I don’t know that this will fix your issue–but it’s an easy-to-check possibility.

@miikerman wrote:

How are you transferring files to the Clip?  A Mac can create ghost files that will choke a player.  The solution:  use Internet freeware Hidden Cleaner or KopyMac to transfer the files. 


Milkerman,

 

I decided to test whether these “ghost files” are a factor in the slow refresh time issues I am having using a 32 GB card with 3100 music files on it.  I moved all of the files to a PC from my Mac.  I then used mp3tag to clean the tags from iTunes using Marvin_Martian’s mp3 tag options.  I resaved all the tags in mp3tag and then I moved all the files from the PC to the SanDisk Card that I had emptied of all the previous files. 

 

When I put the card back into the ClipZip and turned it on it took 110 minutes to complete the refresh.  This is about as long as it took before, so the ghost files don’t appear to be the issue in these long refresh times.  ITunes tags don’t appear to be the issue, I replaced all of those with the mp3tag program.  I lost all the cover art in the process of the move from Mac to PC, so the cover art is not the issue.  The only thing left to try is MSC versus MTP mode.  I have been using MSC mode up until now, due to use of the MAC, but now I can try MTP instead.  Any bets on whether this helps?

 

What’s left to try other than MSC vs. MTP?

 

GPH

I just got my Clip Zip last week, and I updated the firmware first thing to the latest firmware.  I haven’t had all of the same issues you all have had loading AAC files to my player, but I noticed today the AAC files I ripped from CDs at 256kb fixed rate do not play well with the Clip Zip (they sound real choppy.)   AAC files from the iTunes store seem to play OK so far.  Just thought it was kinda weird my ripped files don’t sound that great but the iTunes purchases do-go figure.  :smiley: