Confirmed - Micro SD Load Problems due to aac file load failures

I have been struggling with getting my purple 4GB Clip Zip to load my audio files from my SanDisk 32GB micro SD card since getting the player over two weeks ago. I put about 29 GB of files on the card and the failure mode has been upon insertion of the card into the player, and then startup, the player starts a refresh cycle and a progress bar starts up on the screen.  When the progress bar reach 30-35% complete the screen goes dark and the load of content from the card comes to an abrupt halt.  I tried two different 32GB memory cards and got the same failures. I tried just loading a third or half of my library and it failed.  I tried under 4GB of files on the card and it still failed when the progress bar reached about 40-45%.  Once it fails, and it became totally predictable that it would, the only recourse at that point is to remove the card and do a hard reset of the player to get it to work again without the card inserted.  The card became essentially worthless.

My files are a mixture of aac (m4a) and mp3.  I loaded the card from a Mac from iTunes using drag and drop. After seeing on another forum post that aac files might be a problem I tried my own experiment. After making a complete backup, I converted all of the aac files to mp3 in iTunes and repeated the load procedure with the entire library again.  This time all files were mp3 instead of a mix of aac (m4a) and mp3.  I got a progress bar on startup of the player as before, but this time the load went to completion.  It took about a 60 minutes to complete, but the GREAT NEWS is it did finish using all mp3 files. I found that my nice, long Kindle power cord fits the Clip Zip, so I plugged it in while this long load process was going on to keep the battery from getting run down.

I can only conclude that SanDisk’s claim of aac file support bears an explanation and an asterisk.  I now have proof that aac files won’t load from the Micro SD card.  My card is not the problem.  The player is.  I have to rate their support of aac files an EPIC FAIL with the current firmware (01.01.15). This issue should have been caught in testing.  Shame on SanDisk and shame on their online support which tried to claim my card must be the problem. They have been a complete waste of my time.

Until they fix the aac file load issue with new firmware, you will have to use mp3 files with your card if you want the files to actually load and be playable.  For now, SanDisk should put an asterisk by their claim of aac file support.

Will those files work if you put them in the internal memory?

I took 13 of the aac files from my library at random and tried to load them into the player. The refresh cycle started and was noticeably very slow. How slow? Try 55 minutes to load the 13 files.  They did finally load to the player memory, but come on, 55 minutes for 13 files!  I would say SanDisk has some work to do to get aac files really supported on this player.  

I can add that if the aac files exceed a data rate of 320 kbps, which some of mine do, they will not be listenable on the clip Zip after the player screen goes dark.  That was another issue I found early on and reported to SanDisk.  I have no word whether this issue will be addressed.  I had created these high data rate files from flac files on my Mac using Max since iTunes does not support flacs. These high data rate aac files played fine in iTunes, but do not on the Clip Zip with the latest firmware. They only sound good until the screen goes dark.

Well, obviously, something is up. I’m not a Mac or iTunes dude, but in the past, it’s been noted that a Mac, when transferring files to a device, creates “ghost system files” that often will clog (better: choke) a device (any DOS-oriented device, not just the Clip). The solution: use freeware software such as KopyMac to transfer the files–it deletes the ghost files (and is easy to use). Note: apparently, KopyMac is fast disappearing, as the developer no longer is working on it; if you can’t find it (or just as an alternative), freeware Hidden Cleaner also has gotten high marks. Perhaps try one of the above (and let us know the results)? P.S. There are a few other ways to eliminate the ghost files, that I don’t have under my belt (such as using terminal emulator or something like that, on a Mac?)–you could try a search here (box at the upper right).

I don’t think these “ghost system files” you speak of are the issue.  If I make the loads using mp3 files they go smoothly and much more quickly than comparable loads of aac files and are completely “choke free”. With MP3 only files in the load, the player refresh step plows through the files steadily and can even digest thousands of files on my card without abending. In short it works as it should if you limit the input to mp3 files only.

Add aac files to the player and refreshes crawl along at a snails pace.   The more aac files you include the slower it loads.  Add the aac files to the card and attempt to load the card contents and you are toast as the load will fail within minutes every time.

I have my proof through extensive testing trying to get this player and SanDisk 32GB card to actually work as advertised.  Extensive testing is something SanDisk apparently chose to skimp on when they built this player and advertised that it would handle both MP3 and non-DRM aac files. 

can you check the AAC files creates in MAX to see what codec is used?  MPEG4 codec mp42 version 2  used by some apps for aac container is not supported by the CZ

drlucky,

I checked all 13 files that took an eternity to load, but did finally load to the player and they were all using an mp42 MP4 v2 [ISO 14496-14] container and a  mp4a: MPEG-4 AAC LC codec.  Since these files play fine in the CZ, but load very slow, just what do you mean by not supported by the CZ?  

As far as MAX being the source of this container, MAX has three AAC data format settings:

AAC

MPEG-4 HE AAC

MPEG-4 HE AAC V2

I tried each one of these settings with the same FLAC source file to see the impact on CODEC and Container.

The results:

AAC setting uses the MPEG-4 LC Profile Codec and the Elementary AAC Audio, ADTS hdrs container

MPEG-4 HE AAC setting uses the same Codec and Container as the AAC setting

MPEG-4 HE AAC V2 setting uses the same Codec and Container as the AAC setting

My conclusion is:  MAX does not use the mp42 MP4 v2 [ISO 14496-14] container.  This makes sense when I think about it.  MAX uses open source and core audio api’s from Apple and is a Mac only product.  MP42 is of Microsoft origin, from what I can tell, and is usually affiliated with Windows Media Video.  So the question is where did my 13 files get the mp42 MP4 v2 [ISO 14496-14] container?

I only use MAX for FLAC conversions to get files iTunes will play since they don’t support FLAC playback.  The other main sources of aac files on my Mac is iTunes itself or I possibly got the files already in aac format.  You can set iTunes to convert files to aac or mp3 on import or you can just right click a file and convert to aac format.  Up until the recent findings of problems with aac files with the CZ, I used an import as aac setting in iTunes. This import setting has a few options of it’s own and I had to try them all to see what happens. The results are interesting to say the least. The two main settings choices for AAC Encoding in iTunes are High Quality (128 kbps) and iTunes Plus.  I found both of these settings produce aac files with the mp42 MP4 v2 [ISO 14496-14] container.  This is the same container signature my 13 files in my previous test have.  This implies those technology exchanges between Apple and Microsoft some years ago must have included this mp42 technology. This also means iTunes is the source of the container that you say the CZ does not support. That has major implications! 

I did all these tests using a Mac with the Mac version of iTunes (10.4.1 - 64 bit version). If what you say is true, that CZ does not support aac files with the mp42 MP4 v2 [ISO 14496-14] container, then by extension, I can now conclude  that means the CZ does not support aac files created in iTunes for the Mac.  I’ll leave it to someone with iTunes for WIndows to test what the aac files situation is with that version of iTunes.  

The only strange thing is the 13 aac files I tested did load and they did playback fine from the player memory. They just took forever to load, so I guess I need that explanation what you mean by “does not support”.

GPH

 

My conclusion is:  MAX does not use the mp42 MP4 v2 [ISO 14496-14] container.  

ISO 14496-14 is the MP4 file format used by AAC.  Everything that understands AAC files supports it.

MAX uses open source and core audio api’s from Apple and is a Mac only product.  MP42 is of Microsoft origin, from what I can tell, and is usually affiliated with Windows Media Video.  So the question is where did my 13 files get the mp42 MP4 v2 [ISO 14496-14] container?

MP42 is the Apple quicktime/mp4 type code for MPEG4 layer 2, not MS-MPEG4v2.  

 I found both of these settings produce aac files with the mp42 MP4 v2 [ISO 14496-14] container.  This is the same container signature my 13 files in my previous test have.  

Unsurprising, since all modern AAC files use that container.

The only strange thing is the 13 aac files I tested did load and they did playback fine from the player memory. They just took forever to load, so I guess I need that explanation what you mean by  “does not support”.

AAC is stupidly complex.  Most likely the Sandisk decoder is just buggy when used on files that don’t use the specific container layout that iTunes uses.  I didn’t see any mention of testing actual iTunes AAC files, but I’d be surprised if they didn’t work.  Until Sandisk gets this figured out, either stick to iTunes or better yet just use MP3 and avoid all this mess entirely.

Saratoga,

Thanks for the quick reply.  To your comments I offer my replies.

Unsurprising, since all modern AAC files use that container.

The 13 aac files I tested were created in iTunes as it turns out and not by MAX, as MAX produces files with a different container signature as my previous post outlined.  MAX does not use that  mp42 MP4 v2 container. 

AAC is stupidly complex.  Most likely the SanDisk decoder is just buggy when used on files that don’t use the specific container layout that iTunes uses.  I didn’t see any mention of testing actual iTunes AAC files, but I’d be surprised if they didn’t work.  Until SanDisk gets this figured out, either stick to iTunes or better yet just use MP3 and avoid all this mess entirely.

I agree with you that the SanDisk decoder is probably buggy.  If you follow the complete thread, you’ll see that the 13 aac files I used for my tests were created as aac files in iTunes and not by MAX, the container signatures and addtional tests bore this out as I outlined. These are the 13 files that took almost an hour to load to the memory of the Clip Zip but do play fine. They work but with great initial load hesitation.  Tests trying to load these same aac files from the memory card led to recurrent card refresh failures and failed loads.  Sticking with iTunes aac files, as you suggest, does not help:  aac files from iTunes are part of the problem with the Clip Zip.  MP3 conversion is the only workaround I have found for now.

Drlucky  referred to  MPEG4 codec mp42 version 2  not being supported by the Clip Zip. I welcome his/her explanation of just what this exactly means and the specifics on how to tell if your aac files are compatible with the Clip Zip or not and what workarounds, other than conversion to mp3 format, are recommended. 

@gph wrote:

Saratoga,

 

Thanks for the quick reply.  To your comments I offer my replies.

 

Unsurprising, since all modern AAC files use that container.

 

The 13 aac files I tested were created in iTunes as it turns out and not by MAX, as MAX produces files with a different container signature as my previous post outlined.  MAX does not use that  mp42 MP4 v2 container. 

 

Regardless of whatever that tool you’re using reports, all of these files are in ISO 14496-14 as that is the MP4 container required for AAC.  If it was otherwise they wouldn’t work in iTunes either :slight_smile:  

Most likely that tool is just reading ftyp atom out of the file, which basically is just the encoders way of saying what it was trying to make and can take almost any value.  I would not read too much into it.

If you follow the complete thread, you’ll see that the 13 aac files I used for my tests were created as aac files in iTunes and not by MAX,

Are you certain they’re plain iTunes files?  Above you did not mention using iTunes to create those files, and also said that your library is a mixture of iTunes, MAX and downloaded files.  Not saying you made a mistake, but if files don’t work I’d suspect theres something special about them.  

saratoga,

I stand by my test results and not by your suppositions that my tool that shows container signatures must not work right or that my 13 test files must not be iTunes created files when in fact they are.

Do you work for SanDisk Customer Support? It sure sounds like it. Your responses sound like somthing they would say. Denial there is an issue here.

I look forward to drlucky’s response at this point.  That could actually be helpful and constructive.

GPH

@gph wrote:

 

I stand by my test results and not by your suppositions that my tool that shows container signatures must not work right

I didn’t say it didn’t work right, I just pointed out that it doesn’t mean much :slight_smile:

@gph wrote:

or that my 13 test files must not be iTunes created files when in fact they are.

 

I didn’t say that either, I asked if you could confirm that they were.  

@gph wrote:

 

Do you work for SanDisk Customer Support? It sure sounds like it. Your responses sound like somthing they would say. Denial there is an issue here.

ahahahahaha wow

sandisk support confirmed the issue with  MPEG4 codec mp42 version 2  and said it is not supported. 

@drlucky wrote:

sandisk support confirmed the issue with  MPEG4 codec mp42 version 2  and said it is not supported. 

I think they confirmed that they had a problem with Microsoft’s AAC encoder.  I haven’t heard them say anything about iTunes AAC files.  If they really didn’t support either WMP or iTunes encoded files that would exclude almost all existing AAC files.  Its hard to imagine they wouldn’t have noticed that sooner.  

@saratoga wrote:


@drlucky wrote:

sandisk support confirmed the issue with  MPEG4 codec mp42 version 2  and said it is not supported. 


I think they confirmed that they had a problem with Microsoft’s AAC encoder.  I haven’t heard them say anything about iTunes AAC files.  If they really didn’t support either WMP or iTunes encoded files that would exclude almost all existing AAC files.  Its hard to imagine they wouldn’t have noticed that sooner.  

 

 

Correct Itunes AAC is supported. 

I knew there was a reason why I’ve always encoded to the universal and trouble-free MP3 format . . . .    :wink:

@drlucky wrote:


@saratoga wrote:


@drlucky wrote:

sandisk support confirmed the issue with  MPEG4 codec mp42 version 2  and said it is not supported. 


I think they confirmed that they had a problem with Microsoft’s AAC encoder.  I haven’t heard them say anything about iTunes AAC files.  If they really didn’t support either WMP or iTunes encoded files that would exclude almost all existing AAC files.  Its hard to imagine they wouldn’t have noticed that sooner.  

 

 


Correct Itunes AAC is supported. 

Yes I thought so.  With that in mind I’m going to repeat what I said above.  If the original poster has files from iTunes that don’t play, and iTunes files are expected to play he should probably try and figure out whats special about those files.  My guess is that they actually weren’t encoded by iTunes, or if they were they were subsequently processed by some other program that rewrote the original iTunes MP4 container in such a way that it broke the files.  Knowing exactly how this happened could be useful.  

1st off let me start by saying I love my Clip Zip (CZ). It is a great alternative to the iPod for those of us that want a simple MP3 player that is small and convenient. 2nd I want to thank GPH so much for posting the same problem I had with my CZ and for posting your research to support your findings. I searched the Internet like crazy trying to find out what the problem was with my CZ and why I couldn’t load my music. My thoughts went from a bad memory card to a bad CZ player. Luckily I also got my wife a CZ the same time I ordered mine and tested hers and still had the same problem. Finally I stumbled upon your post with similar results to my own. Thank you again.

I took the research a step further and reviewed my music using Mp3tag v2.49. You stated that the CZ doesn’t play AAC format files even though it was stated by SanDisk. I checked the Codec tags of my music and saw that about half of it was in AAC iTunes version “X”, where X would be whatever version of iTunes I had at the time that converted my music to AAC format as I added music to my iTunes library. I used iTunes back in the day when I had an iPod but no longer rely on that as my MP3 player since I found my CZ.

I also checked the tags in Windows for my music. I saw the same result where half of my music was in MP3 the other in AAC but one thing I also noticed was that some were M4P or protected music I had in my library. I had about 20 to 30 songs that I either got from iTunes or from CDs ripped. I forgot to rip those CDs to MP3 format instead of ripping them on the default setting of M4P.

I took my MicroSD card out of my CZ and put it back into my PC. I did a search for M4P music on my SD card and found that 20 – 30 tracks from different artist were in M4P format and AAC tagged. I removed all M4P music from that card and reinserted the card into my CZ. The card finally loaded on my CZ and my music played without any issues.  It took about 3 mins to load or so b/c I have a 32GB card of which 20GB is full of music. Those files are still in AAC format on the card but the M4P music was removed. Since the music is protected I don’t think the SanDisk can play it and doesn’t know what to do with the files as it tries to refresh its media causing the player to freeze and then crash prompting a reboot. Try checking your internal and external storage for any M4P or protected music. If you find any of these files try to remove them from your card 1st and try reinserting your card back into your CZ to see if there is a different result. If successful try adding the rest of your unprotected AAC music to your card and see if it will load your music again.

If you bought any music from the iTunes store I can almost guarantee you that it is protected and Apple will not authorize you to play this music on any other device except your authorized iPod or other authorized equipment such as an iPad, iPhone etc.

With the M4P music I had problems playing it on iTunes (b/c some of that music I got from a friend’s library and they would need to log in to my iTunes account to play it), Winamp, Zune and Windows Media player.

There are ways around this. You can take the music on your PC that is M4P and use software to convert it to MP3 or you can burn your M4P music to a CD then recopy that burned music in MP3 format back on your PC.

Lastly, if you don’t want any of your music in AAC format you can use iTunes to convert your current unprotected AAC format music from AAC to MP3. iTunes will just make a 2nd copy keeping the original AAC but adding a MP3 copy as well. Careful for you can double the size of you library so make sure you have the space to do this. Also always have a backup in case something goes wrong before you start that process.

Hope this helps.

CincyJr

Actually, as to iTunes and DRM: current iTunes music is not DRM-protected; Apple stopped using DRM for music in early 2009, and so music bought from that point forward from iTunes is DRM-free. (The Apple change of policy did not affect music purchased earlier from Apple, however; although I believe that you also can convert your DRM-protected tunes to DRM-free tunes, for an extra fee.)

CincyJr,

It’s good to hear from another CZ owner with some concerns about SanDisk’s spotty M4A (AAC) support.

Out of 3100 songs, I had about 32 M4P files that were from some of my few iTunes purchases back in the day when everything was protected.  I also found I had about 24 newer iTunes downloads that were not protected. These were M4A files.  I found a way to convert the M4P’s to M4A files, but I found M4A files themselves were an issue, so I gave up on M4A and converted all M4A files to MP3’s. Once I went to all MP3’s I was able to put 29GB of songs on my 32GB card and this left the player’s 4GB for everything else, like podcasts, audio books, and recordings.

ITunes has an option to import files as either M4A’s or MP3’s.  I was using M4A as my import choice, but the issues I encountered with the Sansa not finishing the refresh when the M4A files were loaded to the card forced me to rethink this choice.  It is easy to mass convert the M4A files to MP3’s in iTunes, so I went down the path of least resistance to resolving this problem.  Use MP3 format and be done with it.

I don’t have the time to debug the flawed M4A file handling that the Sansa ClipZip exhibits.  Just recognize there are iTunes aac (M4A) issues and steer around them with MP3 format.  I wasted enough time trying to get SanDisk to acknowledge the aac(M4A) support issues and work towards a fix, but they were still in denial and said my card must be bad. 

I have since loaded all my 3100+ songs to the card thinking I will put all podcasts, audio books and recordings on the player’s memory.  I thought this approach would minimize the player refresh cycle when any content changed.  The podcasts get added and deleted regularly, so I wanted to keep refresh cycle times to a minimum.  I am disappointed to report that any adds or deletes to the player memory result in player refresh cycles that still take over 10 minutes with the almost full memory card still inserted.  I guess SanDisk would say it takes that long because I have so many songs on the card, but I think their refresh routine is inefficiently written assuming a much smaller memory footprint than most people will ultimately try and use with this player.  Your use case appears similar to mine.  You are using the 32GB card like I am.  Adding or deleting a few podcasts to the player should not take over ten minutes to update the players “database”.

That is unfortunately the situation, even using all mp3 files.  What is your file count and what are your refresh times like?  How are your files spread (player memory versus card)?

GPH