Sansa Clip + and 16GB Micro SDHC card....

“Now the weird thing is, when I unboxed this player there was a selection of music pre-installed. I mounted the player as FAT32 on my system. I searched the file system for files but there was nothing there (apart from the files I have listed above). This makes me think that the player isn’t actually presenting all of the internal memory as the FAT32 fs (which is very odd)…”

Those songs that came with the player were transfered in MTP mode. When you connect in MSC mode files transfered to the player in MTP mode aren’t visible, and visa versa.

I realize you are frustrated. The limits for the player should have been documented. As I said before, all mp3 players have song limits, and typically most player makers don’t make these limits easy to find out about. I guess the reasoning is if Sandisk mentioned an 8,000 file limit for the Clip+, then people would complain when they couldn’t reach 8,000 songs if they have long filenames, long folder names, heavily nested files, etc.

No sorry I don’t agree. The argument that “other players do it” just doesn’t work with me I am afraid.

All players have limits. The limit is normally the storage space available to the player.

In this case that isn’t the case. The limit is under a reasonable amount that could be expected from the player. Again 8 GB internal + cheap SD cards go up to 16GB  - the players designed for expansion.

Let me put it another way. I have replicated the problem and proven that it will not show all the ogg files at average 64 kbps on an 8GB SD cards, so double this up and you have got the exact same problem using MP3’s on a 16GB SD card. Again, unacceptible limits. This is not doing something toally crazy with the player. It’s filling it up with typical songs.

So anyway, I cleared *all* the music from the player… so it was totally empty. I then added 1 album in (this time without tags)…

 rjfrost@wagon-wheel:/media/disk$ strings MTABLE.SYS
mmc:0:\
VORC0000.WAV
mmc:0:\
FMRC0000.WAV
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
01_-_Ether_Sings.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
02_-_Icebound_Stream.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
03_-_Rapture.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
04_-_Lonely_Angel_Dust.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
05_-_The_Cloud_Room.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
06_-_Wind_Is_Blowing_Stars.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
07_-_Shadow_Blues.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
08_-_Anne_Bonny_Rag.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
09_-_Snow_Camping.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
10_-_Chimney_Sweeping_Man.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
11_-_Salvage_A_Smile.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
12_-_Blackened_Anchor.ogg

Yet the file is still padded out with 0’s to be 1.8MB 

rjfrost@wagon-wheel:/media/disk$ ls -lh MTABLE.SYS
-rwx------ 1 rjfrost root 1.8M 1980-01-01 00:00 MTABLE.SYS

No matter what happens, that file is *always* 1.8MB.

I put some tagged mp3’s onto the player and could see the tags ARE in this file…

So here’s my next question. If MP3 tags are going into this file then it might be a fair assumption to make that this file *is* the database. If so why does the player demand that 90MB is kept clear on the internal memory for the database. Could it be that this file is supposed to be allowed to grow bigger? 

“All players have limits. The limit is normally the storage space available to the player.”

That is just one limit. The other limit present on all players that navigate by tags is a limit in the size of the database table file.

“In this case that isn’t the case. The limit is under a reasonable amount that could be expected from the player. Again 8 GB internal + cheap SD cards go up to 16GB  - the players designed for expansion.”

Not beyond 8,000 files though, and even less if there is heavy nesting of folders, or long filenames, foldernames, or long tags.

“Again, unacceptible limits. This is not doing something toally crazy with the player. It’s filling it up with typical songs.”

I’m sorry if you don’t like this. I didn’t design the player. I am not a Sandisk employee. Don’t attack the messenger if you don’t like news. I am just explaing the limitations. Other players have limitations as well. I do blame Sandisk for not printing the limitations on the product box and in the product description. 24 GB of 4 minute average mp3 songs at 128 kbps is approximately 6500 songs. It is not difficult to put this on the player unless there is heavy folder nesting or very long names being used. I don’t know of any flash memory based players that can hold more than around 8,000 songs. A player by a competing company has a full sized SDHC card slot, yet only recognizes up to 4,000 songs on the card.

The message saying that there isn’t enough space and to free space really means that some files are corrupted. Use chkdsk to find which files are corrupted. If you search the forums here, you will see more about this.

Ok, odd thing is MTABLE.SYS has mp3 id3 tags in it from tagged mp3’s. OGG tags are not there apart from Track Number and only file names are there from untagged music…

 rjfrost@wagon-wheel:/media/disk-1$ strings MTABLE.SYS
mmc:0:\
VORC0000.WAV
mmc:0:\
FMRC0000.WAV
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
01_-_Ether_Sings.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
02_-_Icebound_Stream.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
03_-_Rapture.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
04_-_Lonely_Angel_Dust.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
05_-_The_Cloud_Room.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
06_-_Wind_Is_Blowing_Stars.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
07_-_Shadow_Blues.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
08_-_Anne_Bonny_Rag.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
09_-_Snow_Camping.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
10_-_Chimney_Sweeping_Man.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
11_-_Salvage_A_Smile.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Carbon Glacier\
12_-_Blackened_Anchor.ogg
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Clouddead\Ten\
01_-_Pop_Song.mp3
Pop Song
cLOUDDEAD
Unknown
00000001
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Clouddead\Ten\
02_-_The_Teen_Keen_Skip.mp3
The Teen Keen Skip
cLOUDDEAD
Unknown
00000002
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Clouddead\Ten\
03_-_Rhymer’s_Only_Room.mp3
Rhymer’s Only Room
cLOUDDEAD
Unknown
00000003
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Clouddead\Ten\
04_-_The_Velvet_Ant.mp3
The Velvet Ant
cLOUDDEAD
Unknown
00000004
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Clouddead\Ten\
05_-_Son_of_a_Gun.mp3
Son of a Gun
cLOUDDEAD
Unknown
00000005
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Clouddead\Ten\
06_-_Rifle_Eyes.mp3
Rifle Eyes
cLOUDDEAD
Unknown
00000006
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Clouddead\Ten\
07_-_Dead_Dogs_Two.mp3
Dead Dogs Two
cLOUDDEAD
Unknown
00000007
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Clouddead\Ten\
08_-_3_Twenty.mp3
3 Twenty
cLOUDDEAD
Unknown
00000008
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Clouddead\Ten\
09_-_Physics_of_a_Unicycle.mp3
Physics of a Unicycle
cLOUDDEAD
Unknown
00000009
mmc:0:\MUSIC\Clouddead\Ten\
10_-_Our_Name.mp3
Our Name
cLOUDDEAD
Unknown
00000010
mmc:0:\MUSIC\In Rainbows\
01_-_15_Step.ogg
00000001
mmc:0:\MUSIC\In Rainbows\
07_-_Reckoner.ogg
00000007
mmc:0:\MUSIC\In Rainbows\
06_-_Faust_Arp.ogg
00000006
mmc:0:\MUSIC\In Rainbows\
02_-_Bodysnatchers.ogg
00000002
mmc:0:\MUSIC\In Rainbows\
08_-_House_Of_Cards.ogg
00000008
mmc:0:\MUSIC\In Rainbows\
09_-_Jigsaw_Falling_Into_Place.ogg
00000009
mmc:0:\MUSIC\In Rainbows\
10_-_Videotape.ogg
00000010
mmc:0:\MUSIC\In Rainbows\
04_-_Weird_Fishes-Arpeggi.ogg
00000004
mmc:0:\MUSIC\In Rainbows\
03_-_Nude.ogg
00000003
mmc:0:\MUSIC\In Rainbows\
05_-_All_I_Need.ogg
00000005

However, the player knows about the genre tag in the ogg (as I changed one file to have a new test genre). The genre doesn’t appear in the file but the player knows about it in the menu… the other odd thing is, if I make this 1.8MB file into ~ 4MB by concatenating 0’s to the end of it…

 rjfrost@wagon-wheel:/media/disk-1$ dd if=/dev/zero count=8192 >> MTABLE.SYS
8192+0 records in
8192+0 records out
4194304 bytes (4.2 MB) copied, 0.0687666 s, 61.0 MB/s

The file is now 5.8 megs… 

rjfrost@wagon-wheel:/media/disk-1$ ls -lh MTABLE.SYS
-rwx------ 1 rjfrost root 5.8M 2009-12-13 01:36 MTABLE.SYS

 I add some more music to the player and get it to rescan… I can see the new music in the library *and* the player hasn’t resized the MTABLE.SYS file…

 (new song example with full tags)

<snip> 

10 a sky for shoeing horses under.mp3
A Sky For Shoeing Horses Under
Why?
Alopecia
Instrumental, Hip-Hop
2008
00000010
<snip>

and same file size…

 rjfrost@wagon-wheel:/media/disk-1$ ls -lh MTABLE.SYS
-rwx------ 1 rjfrost root 5.8M 1980-01-01 00:00 MTABLE.SYS

I’m going to leave the player loading more music now and see what happens… 

That is just one limit. The other limit present on all players that navigate by tags is a limit in the size of the database table file.

 

“In this case that isn’t the case. The limit is under a reasonable amount that could be expected from the player. Again 8 GB internal + cheap SD cards go up to 16GB  - the players designed for expansion.”

 

Not beyond 8,000 files though, and even less if there is heavy nesting of folders, or long filenames, foldernames, or long tags.

 

“Again, unacceptible limits. This is not doing something toally crazy with the player. It’s filling it up with typical songs.”

 

I’m sorry if you don’t like this. I didn’t design the player. I am not a Sandisk employee. Don’t attack the messenger if you don’t like news. I am just explaing the limitations. Other players have limitations as well. I do blame Sandisk for not printing the limitations on the product box and in the product description. 24 GB of 4 minute average mp3 songs at 128 kbps is approximately 6500 songs. It is not difficult to put this on the player unless there is heavy folder nesting or very long names being used. I don’t know of any flash memory based players that can hold more than around 8,000 songs. A player by a competing company has a full sized SDHC card slot, yet only recognizes up to 4,000 songs on the card.

 

The message saying that there isn’t enough space and to free space really means that some files are corrupted. Use chkdsk to find which files are corrupted. If you search the forums here, you will see more about this.

 

No one is “attacking anyone”. I have already gathered that you’re not a SanDisk employee / developer. I am not “attacking” any messenger about not liking the news. I am simply saying that I don’t agree with your take on what is acceptable regarding the limits.

I know other players have limits, however, players I have seen in the past function in a more sensible way. For example, when doing “filesystem” navigation the DB isn’t consulted. This means that regardless of what problems there are with the DB you can still get at the tunes that are present on the file system. The SanDisk player should do this also. The DB shouldn’t be a static size, it should be allowed to grow with the files with the related storage space / player speed penalty. This was the case when I got the original Creative DAP way back before the iPod came out. That player was 6GB HDD and has it’s own RTOS and bespoke filesystem. You could however get a 20 GB disk, use unix’s dd to copy over the first few sectors of the old disk onto the new one. Install the disk, boot and run a format. You’d end up with a 20GB properly formatted disk. You could fill that up using the usual methods and the DB would grow to acommodate all the files. The first limit you hit was one of time, i.e. how long you were prepared to wait each time the machine needed to manipulate the DB… however it worked.

I believe the iPod’s DB works the same way, i.e it’s not a fixed size. The ipod nano is a flash player that will hold > 8,000 songs. That’s just off the top of my head. I am sure there are many others that will. In fact I have access to a flash player which takes full size SD *and* plays Ogg. I’ll be interested in seeing how that handles the same structure.

The message about not being enough space isn’t meaning that files are corrupted. You get this message after you format the player (thus shrinking the DB back down) and filling the internal memory completely. Simply removing enough files from the internal memory is then all that needs to happen. Once the DB is created it is then impossible to fill the player again so that there isn’t enough space for the DB as the DB doesn’t appear to be visible to the file system (if it really is 90 MB anyway).

the_real_frosty wrote:


The message saying that there isn’t enough space and to free space really means that some files are corrupted. Use chkdsk to find which files are corrupted. If you search the forums here, you will see more about this.

 


 

The message about not being enough space isn’t meaning that files are corrupted. You get this message after you format the player (thus shrinking the DB back down) and filling the internal memory completely. Simply removing enough files from the internal memory is then all that needs to happen. Once the DB is created it is then impossible to fill the player again so that there isn’t enough space for the DB as the DB doesn’t appear to be visible to the file system (if it really is 90 MB anyway).

 

 

 

This has been a known issue here with corrupted files, the message of “not enough space for DB”. I used to run my Sansas with less than 10MB free for months upon end without issue. Yes, you can remove files and then it will work…but then you’re not getting the use of all the memory you’ve paid for. I believe JK98 is correct in suggesting chkdsk.

fuze_owner-GB wrote:


@marvin_martian wrote:


@fuze_owner_gb wrote:


@miikerman wrote:

Yes, longer battery life would be great.  But my guess is that physics gets in the way.

 

At home, what you could do is simply use an AC adapter while you sleep.  That would both recharge and prevent further battery drain.  Or, of course, just use a different, bigger player with bigger battery.  (Or, have a separate player for home use–I’m sure SanDisk would love that!)


The people that I know that own Clip+s (including myself) think that the player is on the small side of being convenient.  I think it’s a case where they wanted to produce a player of a given size, and they were going to produce said unit at all costs, even if it meant less than stellar battery performance.

 

Call me stubborn, but I’m not going out of my way to find a stop-gap solution to a problem that stems from it’s design…That’s why the Clip+ isn’t and won’t be my primary player.  I’m just throwing out my opinion on the battery issue in hopes that at some point the present design be completely overhauled to get decent battery life.


This just brings to my mind again the concept of a player sized in between the Clip and Fuze…imagine a CLip+ sized big enough to hold a Fuze-sized battery. That would be better than either Clip+ or Fuze IMO.:stuck_out_tongue:


Yup…completely agreed.  I base that opinion not only on my preference, but others I know that have either a Clip or Clip+.  The thing looks so cute in the store, but after using it for awhile, it’s almost too small to be easy to use.  A larger physical size and a higher capacity battery would fit the bill for many.

 

 

I guess I would see, if you want a bigger size, one could just get the Fuze–it really isn’t all that big itself.  Although I do see and understand your wants.  My hunch is that if SanDisk had made the Clip bigger, it could miss out on people wanting a smaller player.  But it’s all a trade-off.  As to operability and size, I find the size just fine to operate, with non-small fingers on a 6’ frame, unless you want a bigger screen–I guess that could be an advantage that a bigger Clip could bring.  

Personally, I’m fine with the size trade-offs, and like the small size.  If the Clip was bigger, I could see it competing with other players such as Cowons rather than standing almost alone in its current field.  

Here’s what would have been a nice option:  a clip-on (to the back) surplus battery supply, like the clip-on battery supply that Sony had for some early Discman players.  

Miikerman wrote:


fuze_owner-GB wrote:


@marvin_martian wrote:


@fuze_owner_gb wrote:


@miikerman wrote:

Yes, longer battery life would be great.  But my guess is that physics gets in the way.

 

At home, what you could do is simply use an AC adapter while you sleep.  That would both recharge and prevent further battery drain.  Or, of course, just use a different, bigger player with bigger battery.  (Or, have a separate player for home use–I’m sure SanDisk would love that!)


The people that I know that own Clip+s (including myself) think that the player is on the small side of being convenient.  I think it’s a case where they wanted to produce a player of a given size, and they were going to produce said unit at all costs, even if it meant less than stellar battery performance.

 

Call me stubborn, but I’m not going out of my way to find a stop-gap solution to a problem that stems from it’s design…That’s why the Clip+ isn’t and won’t be my primary player.  I’m just throwing out my opinion on the battery issue in hopes that at some point the present design be completely overhauled to get decent battery life.


This just brings to my mind again the concept of a player sized in between the Clip and Fuze…imagine a CLip+ sized big enough to hold a Fuze-sized battery. That would be better than either Clip+ or Fuze IMO.:stuck_out_tongue:


Yup…completely agreed.  I base that opinion not only on my preference, but others I know that have either a Clip or Clip+.  The thing looks so cute in the store, but after using it for awhile, it’s almost too small to be easy to use.  A larger physical size and a higher capacity battery would fit the bill for many.

 

 


I guess I would see, if you want a bigger size, one could just get the Fuze–it really isn’t all that big itself.  Although I do see and understand your wants.  My hunch is that if SanDisk had made the Clip bigger, it could miss out on people wanting a smaller player.  But it’s all a trade-off.  As to operability and size, I find the size just fine to operate, with non-small fingers on a 6’ frame, unless you want a bigger screen–I guess that could be an advantage that a bigger Clip could bring.  

 

Personally, I’m fine with the size trade-offs, and like the small size.  If the Clip was bigger, I could see it competing with other players such as Cowons rather than standing almost alone in its current field.  

 

Here’s what would have been a nice option:  a clip-on (to the back) surplus battery supply, like the clip-on battery supply that Sony had for some early Discman players.  

But the Fuze has that wasteful color screen, and shoddy video capability, and it doesn’t have a clip on it! Something in the middle between the two could keep the Clip+'s more energy-efficient screen and clip but add the Fuze-sized battery…it would be the best of both, all in one.

I can understand that.  I just can’t see SanDisk coming out with an in-between version (if we’re talking the reality of the situation   ;)   ), and I think dropping the current size in favor of that could be a loss of some customers wanting the small size–at that point, Cowon has a nice player, as others have noted here.  Right now, SanDisk really has this size to itself (for players having features as full as the Clip). 

I want a player midway in size between the Clip+ and Fuze, but I want it to have the scroll wheel, a mini USB connector,a full sized SDXC card slot(and a song limit of 32,000 songs, or perhaps no limit if tag browsing is disabled) and a low power monochrome LCD display like on a digital watch, so it can be on all the time while the player is on. It could have a dedicated backlight button that has the backlight on just while it is pressed. Think about the thousands of hours a digital watch display is on with such a tiny battery. I want true browsing by folders, and an option to disable tag browsing to avoid a database refresh when swapping cards.  I want the player to have 40-60 hours of battery life(although above 60 hours would be even nicer). I want it to be able to sufficiently power my Sony V6 and other headphones up to 100 ohms that are over 100 db/mw in efficiency. I also want it to have variable speed playback with pitch correction for podcasts and audiobooks.

@miikerman wrote:
I can understand that.  I just can’t see SanDisk coming out with an in-between version (if we’re talking the reality of the situation   ;)   ), and I think dropping the current size in favor of that could be a loss of some customers wanting the small size–at that point, Cowon has a nice player, as others have noted here.  Right now, SanDisk really has this size to itself (for players having features as full as the Clip). 

Just because a company has a niche product to itself, doesn’t necessarily make it a good one.  With any product there is always room for improvement, and the Clip+s weak point is it’s battery life.  I personally know of many people that got rid of their Clips due to it’s short operational time; so I guess at this point it’s Sandisk’s call.  Make a product that has desirous features with a decent battery capacity, or keep the product pretty much as it is.  

I just know that they can cross me off any potential buyers list, if they don’t improve the battery life.  That’s the great thing about the free enterprise system.  If one company doesn’t provide you with what you want, another company will. :wink:

Message Edited by fuze_owner-GB on 12-13-2009 06:52 AM

@marvin_martian wrote:



This has been a known issue here with corrupted files, the message of “not enough space for DB”. I used to run my Sansas with less than 10MB free for months upon end without issue. Yes, you can remove files and then it will work…but then you’re not getting the use of all the memory you’ve paid for. I believe JK98 is correct in suggesting chkdsk.

Yes, but if you’re running the device only 10 MB free space and the DB needs that 10 MB then surely you’re going to get the same error.

I’m assuming CHKDSK is the Window’s land file system check similar to fsck.vfat in a Linux environment? Sorry I don’t use Windows so am not familiar with it’s filesystem toolset. If you’re having to fsck the file system to get rid of the 90MB needed for DB message though, something has gone wrong somewhere…

I noticed when experimenting yesterday, artifically expanding the MTABLE.SYS file by using the unix DD command to fill the end of the file with zero’s causes a similar problem, i.e. the player seems to think that there isn’t enough room for the DB even where there is like 128 MB free on the device. Eventually freeing up loads of space makes it happy. I am assuming from this that any corruption to the MTABLE.SYS file could be what is causing the errors with the DB size… however in the case you mentioned above, yeah it’s annoying that you can’t have the advertised space purely for music. I believe the same true for other players though, I know the iPod uses a DB which grows in proportion with the number of files (thus tags) in the player.  I don’t think there’s a way around this.

I have had enough playing about with the clip this weekend so far… I am being dragged out to drink beer and stuff so would seem churlish to stay in messing with it.

My last hope at getting it to recognise all the tracks is going to be to remove all the ogg tag’s. From what I have seen so far this should reduce the MTABLE.SYS size by quite a bit, hopefully enough to allow all the music I want on it. This does mean being limited to using only the FileSystem view (split over 2 flash memory parts) but that’s just going to have to be the way it is for now…

I’ll contact SanDisc to report the findings so far.

I think that by artificially expanding the size of the MTABLE.SYS file I’ve made it so that there might be space for everything but I think then it hits the limit in the 90MB DB where ever that might live. Oh I dunno… maybe I could sign a non disclosure and have a look at the source code :slight_smile:

Pigs might fly though…

I’d be tempted to get the iPod Nano instead now (considering it’s a finished product that works) but that would mean fighting the Apple nastiness to get it working with Linux and it wouldn’t play ogg so would mean transcoding the MP3 collection again into some evil format, something that’s do-able but I am getting sick of having to hack consumer electronics just to get them to work properly :frowning: Maybe one day the RockBox will be available for the new Nano’s and that might be the solution or some other manufacturer will bring out a high capacity, ultra small, basic mp3 / ogg player and actually have it finished and working before marketting… again, flying pigs spring to mind.

Thanks again for all your help here chaps. I think I am going to leave it here for now.

Rob. 

fuze_owner-GB wrote:

 

Just because a company has a niche product to itself, doesn’t necessarily make it a good one.  With any product there is always room for improvement, and the Clip+s weak point is it’s battery life.  I personally know of many people that got rid of their Clips due to it’s short operational time; so I guess at this point it’s Sandisk’s call.  Make a product that has desirous features with a decent battery capacity, or keep the product pretty much as it is.  

 

I just know that they can cross me off any potential buyers list, if they don’t improve the battery life.  That’s the great thing about the free enterprise system.  If one company doesn’t provide you with what you want, another company will. :wink:

Message Edited by fuze_owner-GB on 12-13-2009 06:52 AM

Yep, you’re right as to the marketplace.  Not many other players out there that match or get close to the Clip, though–SanDisk did a nice job on many fronts.  Having just come out with the Clip+, I would be surprised to see SanDisk changing its physical form, at least for another year (or 2) minimum–but one never knows.

I’m sure that SanDisk would be happy to increase the battery life, as technology allows (this is the direction the company went in moving to the Clip+, with an increase in battery conservation while adding features).  Would be nice.  But I also think that the “niche” product already is a pretty good one as it is–fortunately, it meets my needs (and I guess that of many others, based on the product’s success).

Having said that, improvements always are welcome (a firmware fix version should be coming out in the near future, SanDisk, to deal with the battery charging issue, among other improvements?).  Personally, I like JK98’s player.   :slight_smile:

@miikerman wrote:


@fuze_owner_gb wrote:

 

Just because a company has a niche product to itself, doesn’t necessarily make it a good one.  With any product there is always room for improvement, and the Clip+s weak point is it’s battery life.  I personally know of many people that got rid of their Clips due to it’s short operational time; so I guess at this point it’s Sandisk’s call.  Make a product that has desirous features with a decent battery capacity, or keep the product pretty much as it is.  

 

I just know that they can cross me off any potential buyers list, if they don’t improve the battery life.  That’s the great thing about the free enterprise system.  If one company doesn’t provide you with what you want, another company will. :wink:

Message Edited by fuze_owner-GB on 12-13-2009 06:52 AM


Yep, you’re right as to the marketplace.  Not many other players out there that match or get close to the Clip, though–SanDisk did a nice job on many fronts.  Having just come out with the Clip+, I would be surprised to see SanDisk changing its physical form, at least for another year (or 2) minimum–but one never knows.

 

I’m sure that SanDisk would be happy to increase the battery life, as technology allows (this is the direction the company went in moving to the Clip+, with an increase in battery conservation while adding features).  Would be nice.  But I also think that the “niche” product already is a pretty good one as it is–fortunately, it meets my needs (and I guess that of many others, based on the product’s success).

 

Having said that, improvements always are welcome (a firmware fix version should be coming out in the near future, SanDisk, to deal with the battery charging issue, among other improvements?).  Personally, I like JK98’s player.   :slight_smile:

I don’t know why, but it seems like all the device producers think that the public wants super thin units, over battery performance.  Myself and most (if not all) of my colleagues would gladly accept a slightly thicker player, if it meant more playing time per charge.

I’ve had portable music players since they were introduced in the marketplace, and currently have players by Microsoft, Cowon, Archos, Creative and Sandisk…So, I know what the other companies are doing and know what I want in a player.  Sad to say, but the Clip+ in it’s present form is my least favorite player I own.  If I could find a buyer locally, I would cut my losses, sell it and move on…but guess what?  Nobody want’s it!!!  I was even prepared to give it to my Brother, but he didn’t want it either!  So, at least in my circles, it doesn’t seem to be that popular.

I do like a small player for on-the-go use; and in that regard I have an iAudio 7.  Sure, it’s thicker and a bit longer than the Clip, but it also boasts 60+ hr. battery life.  I’m not expecting the Clip+ to ever have close to that; but I think a real-world expectation of around 20 hours would and should be do-able.  Until that day arrives, my Clip+ will spend most of it’s time in the bottom of my sock drawer…:cry:


Frosty wrote:

I’d be tempted to get the iPod Nano instead now (considering it’s a finished product that works) but that would mean fighting the Apple nastiness to get it working with Linux and it wouldn’t play ogg so would mean transcoding the MP3 collection again into some evil format, something that’s do-able but I am getting sick of having to hack consumer electronics just to get them to work properly :frowning: Maybe one day the RockBox will be available for the new Nano’s and that might be the solution or some other manufacturer will bring out a high capacity, ultra small, basic mp3 / ogg player and actually have it finished and working before marketing… again, flying pigs spring to mind.


Look at Cowon, I can’t speak for the quality etc, I don’t own one. However, unless Fuze is lying to us, (s)he has one.

So, Mr (or Mrs, or Miss, or Ms) Fuze_… Could you be so kind as to answer some questions regarding the Cowon IAudio 7 for me please*.

Whilst playing MP3s people have reported ~40+ hours life in normal use. So, using this as a benchmark, how does Vorbis playback compare for battery life. Does it suffer the same as Clip, if so by how much (if still over 20hrs playback I’d probably be content).

Tag support: It has it for MP3s, but I’ve heard reports of it being broken for Ogg files, is this true?

Available space: The Clip+ uses ~200MB (or maybe more) for internal use. I consider this a fair cop, although informing people of the available space would be nice.

Roughly how much space is available on the 7? I currently have 8.4G of music, so it must be a 16G device, but it would be good to know before I cough up £130.

Any other issues? I’m a Linux user, although I’m guessing there won’t be issues there. Oh, and the ‘capsense inputs’ don’t scare me :slight_smile:

Cheers,

Mr (Although considering ‘its’ options) D.

*I’m aware implying someone may be a liar is not the best introduction before requesting help, but my tact went off looking for my intelligence, which ran away after my patience finally ceased to exist. None have been seen since.

@dihenydd wrote:

@frosty wrote:

I’d be tempted to get the iPod Nano instead now (considering it’s a finished product that works) but that would mean fighting the Apple nastiness to get it working with Linux and it wouldn’t play ogg so would mean transcoding the MP3 collection again into some evil format, something that’s do-able but I am getting sick of having to hack consumer electronics just to get them to work properly :frowning: Maybe one day the RockBox will be available for the new Nano’s and that might be the solution or some other manufacturer will bring out a high capacity, ultra small, basic mp3 / ogg player and actually have it finished and working before marketing… again, flying pigs spring to mind.

 

Look at Cowon, I can’t speak for the quality etc, I don’t own one. However, unless Fuze is lying to us, (s)he has one.

 

 

So, Mr (or Mrs, or Miss, or Ms) Fuze_… Could you be so kind as to answer some questions regarding the Cowon IAudio 7 for me please*.

Whilst playing MP3s people have reported ~40+ hours life in normal use. So, using this as a benchmark, how does Vorbis playback compare for battery life. Does it suffer the same as Clip, if so by how much (if still over 20hrs playback I’d probably be content).

Tag support: It has it for MP3s, but I’ve heard reports of it being broken for Ogg files, is this true?

Available space: The Clip+ uses ~200MB (or maybe more) for internal use. I consider this a fair cop, although informing people of the available space would be nice.

Roughly how much space is available on the 7? I currently have 8.4G of music, so it must be a 16G device, but it would be good to know before I cough up £130.

Any other issues? I’m a Linux user, although I’m guessing there won’t be issues there. Oh, and the ‘capsense inputs’ don’t scare me :slight_smile:

 

Cheers,

Mr (Although considering ‘its’ options) D.

 

*I’m aware implying someone may be a liar is not the best introduction before requesting help, but my tact went off looking for my intelligence, which ran away after my patience finally ceased to exist. None have been seen since.

Hello…For the record, I’m a Mr. :smileyvery-happy:

Some of the questions I can address, others I can’t.  I haven’t placed any ogg vorbis files on any of my Cowon units, simply because I like the sound signature of wma better; so I can’t offer any help there.

I personally have the i7 16GB model, so that should be sufficient for your storage needs…and I routinely get around 50-60 hrs. of battery life with normal, real-world use.  I haven’t run it down too often, as after awhile, I just charge it whether it’s close to empty or not.

The biggest complaint I’ve personally heard about the unit is that it has a bizarre, too sensitive user-interface.  Personally, I’ve had no such issues myself.  I like the UI just fine and works perfectly for my use.

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers for the info.

I’ve found a bit more info on the unit regards Ogg support:

Browsing by tag is completely broken (but browsing by filesystem allows tags to display properly for Oggs).

Playlist support (of the non MTP variety, ie m3u) doesn’t exist.

Oh well, time to give up and continue to use my minidisc player. Yes, I’m that far behind the times.

It’s not that the two issues are major, they aren’t. I can rename all my directories to look pretty, and it is possible to live sans-playlist. But, for £130 they should be damned well ironing out these problems. Grr.

fuze_owner-GB wrote:




 

 I like the sound signature of wma

 

You know, it’s too bad that WMP is such a crappy-arsed ripper, because the WMA VBR works really well with the medium bitrates, comparable to much larger MP3 filesizes. But if your CD is scratched with WMP, forget it.

MediaMonkey will let you convert to it, and with VBR to boot, but it works by quality percentage, as opposed to bitrate ranges in WMP. I may experiment with this with some of my FLACs, to see what settings might work. My players both have good enough battery life to handle WMA decoding. Who knows, maybe in a couple weeks my 16GB player will hold well over 3,000 songs as opposed to its current 2,234, while living up to my standards of sound quality. :dizzy_face:

fuze_owner-GB wrote:

 

I don’t know why, but it seems like all the device producers think that the public wants super thin units, over battery performance.  Myself and most (if not all) of my colleagues would gladly accept a slightly thicker player, if it meant more playing time per charge.

 

I’ve had portable music players since they were introduced in the marketplace, and currently have players by Microsoft, Cowon, Archos, Creative and Sandisk…So, I know what the other companies are doing and know what I want in a player.  Sad to say, but the Clip+ in it’s present form is my least favorite player I own.  If I could find a buyer locally, I would cut my losses, sell it and move on…but guess what?  Nobody want’s it!!!  I was even prepared to give it to my Brother, but he didn’t want it either!  So, at least in my circles, it doesn’t seem to be that popular.

 

I do like a small player for on-the-go use; and in that regard I have an iAudio 7.  Sure, it’s thicker and a bit longer than the Clip, but it also boasts 60+ hr. battery life.  I’m not expecting the Clip+ to ever have close to that; but I think a real-world expectation of around 20 hours would and should be do-able.  Until that day arrives, my Clip+ will spend most of it’s time in the bottom of my sock drawer…:cry:

Your feelings about what SanDisk should be doing are understood.  Maybe you’re right and a bigger Clip wouldn’t be all that bad, and would be great in the end.  But it’s not going to happen in the short-term, most likely, as you likely can see.  And in the meanwhile, despite what people in your circle like, the Clips continue to be marketplace successes and well regarded by the critics. 

(And the Clips aren’t really super-thin units putting thin-ness over battery performance, either as to super-thin-ness or deficient battery performance.  They just don’t meet a longer battery preference.  They probably meet needs and expectations just fine for most people who don’t use a player beyond 10-15 hours a day.)

@marvin_martian wrote:


@fuze_owner_gb wrote:




 

 I like the sound signature of wma

 


You know, it’s too bad that WMP is such a crappy-arsed ripper, because the WMA VBR works really well with the medium bitrates, comparable to much larger MP3 filesizes. But if your CD is scratched with WMP, forget it.

 

MediaMonkey will let you convert to it, and with VBR to boot, but it works by quality percentage, as opposed to bitrate ranges in WMP. I may experiment with this with some of my FLACs, to see what settings might work. My players both have good enough battery life to handle WMA decoding. Who knows, maybe in a couple weeks my 16GB player will hold well over 3,000 songs as opposed to its current 2,234, while living up to my standards of sound quality. :dizzy_face:

With the current incarnation of wma, the settings are a bit more standardized than they’ve been in the past.  There are settings of 98, 90, 75, 50 and so on.  After plenty of experimentation, I’ve found that the 75 setting is still very musical, yet saving a substantial amount of storage space.  I can’t speak for WMP, because I don’t use the product, but if it doesn’t allow for encoding by percentages, they’ve never updated the codec handling in the software.  The new version of WMA is definitely better than the old version, IMO.

I just checked…Both Winamp and the Zune software also support the newer wma standard.  Both are free, and they also would be alternatives in ripping and converting to wma.

If you can accept the sound quality of 75; rip and save a CDs worth of material in that format, and then rip and save that same CD in mp3 in V1 or V0; then look at the space savings…Quite an eye opener!

EDIT:

Now grated wma at a setting of 75 won’t be perfect in sound reproduction, but I have multiple players for different needs.  For most situations, the wma files suit just fine; but when I want to kick back, enjoy a fine glass of wine and get totally absorbed in the music, I will use a high bite rate or lossless codec.

Message Edited by fuze_owner-GB on 12-13-2009 08:53 PM