Open-sourcing the Fuze's firmware

  First of all, I have a small feature request: if no video and/or photo files are currently in the Fuze’s database, I would prefer there to be no “Video” and/or “Photo” option(s) present in the main menu. Of course, the “Video” and/or “Photo” menu item(s) would automatically re-appear if any videos and/or photos were found at a later refresh of the database.

  I like that the Fuze keeps things simple and does what it is supposed to do *well*, instead of trying to do everything that my other gadgets were built to do (e.g. games, phone, microwave, [video?]).

  Whilst I realise that a significant portion of the Fuze’s userbase do use the video playback feature, an equally large proportion never do, and probably never will, use it. I believe that my suggestion would hinder no-one, but would improve the UI for the latter of these two groups. An alternative (and quite possibly better) solution would be to have the option of hiding each of the main menu items (other than Music and Settings). This would consist of a small list of checkboxes (one per item: Videos, Photos, FM Radio, Voice) which could be set from within Settings > System Settings > Main Menu Item Visibility.

  My other request is that SanDisk seriously consider releasing an open-source version of their firmware. This does not mean that they would have to discontinue their ongoing work on new firmware updates and support, however it would mean that new feature requests could be implemented and tested far more quickly, at least on a personal level, and made available to the rest of the community (including SanDisk of course, who may be able to incorporate specific parts of the open-source code into their official updates).

  I do not believe that SanDisk’s current firmware includes anything technically outstanding, or worth “stealing” from other parties’ points of view (i.e. other than perhaps the sound quality, I can’t imagine Apple, Sony, Samsung or Cowon would find anything new for their players here, code-wise). N.B. I am not suggesting that SanDisks code is poor or lacklustre in any way: just that it does not appear to contain anything that is worth keeping secret from anyone. I am very grateful for all of the ongoing work done by the SanDisk team.

  This would also attract a significant number of new customers and would significantly increase the product’s life-cycle (of course, if SanDisk were to continue to maintain a similar model (i.e. releasing open-source firmware alongside it’s official updates) for at least one player per generation, this would not negatively affect sales of future hardware (rather it would likely have a positive impact, as described previously)).

  I hope that these suggestions will be considered seriously, and would greatly appreciate an official response (especially to the open-sourcing suggestion) from the SanDisk Sansa team. I would also be very interested in hearing about any potential issues that might be anticipated or foreseen if this proposal were to be carried out.

[Message edited for improved legibility.]

Message Edited by Ellipsis on 04-03-2009 06:58 PM

i agree with making the fuze open source. i didnt buy the fuze for the software i bought it for the hardware and the fact it plays open formats.

@psywiped wrote:
i agree with making the fuze open source. i didnt buy the fuze for the software i bought it for the hardware and the fact it plays open formats.

It was a firmware update that allowed it to play the open formats…the hardware was still the same:stuck_out_tongue:

My only concern with open sourcing the firmware would be the potential for virus or destruction of the Fuze. If you open source and a novice tries to mod the FW they could ruin the player unless there is some type of revert back to a safe firmware. Also there are people out there who dont like sansa as is evidanced by the amount of people who flame these boards, It would not suprise me to see viruses developed for the fuze if this happened.

@ellipsis wrote:

  First of all, I have a small feature request: if no video and/or photo files are currently in the Fuze’s database, I would prefer there to be no “Video” and/or “Photo” option(s) present in the main menu. Of course, the “Video” and/or “Photo” menu item(s) would automatically re-appear if any videos and/or photos were found at a later refresh of the database.

What a fine idea.  As you also said, making the menu customizable would be outstanding, as well.

My other request is that SanDisk seriously consider releasing an open-source version of their firmware. This does not mean that they would have to discontinue their ongoing work on new firmware updates and support, however it would mean that new feature requests could be implemented and tested far more quickly, at least on a personal level, and made available to the rest of the community ( including SanDisk of course, who may be able to incorporate specific parts of the open-source code into their official updates ).

If they put open-source code into their product, it all becomes open-source, as they have to publish the source code.  I think.  IANAE.

If they were, on the other hand, willing to ‘work’ with the developers of Rockbox, then the good folks that spend their precious free time writing alternative firmware would have a huge leg up on getting it working on the SanDisk family of products.  I think that would result in increased sales, I know I would be much more likely to buy a product that supported it, and word-of-mouth advertising is worth a lot.  I’d be spreading the good news for sure.

When I Rockbox’d my son’s c250, all his friends at school were various shades of green about the games.  (of course)  The other aspects of the player aren’t as important to that age group typically, but in a few years, the other features will become more important.

@conversionbox wrote:
My only concern with open sourcing the firmware would be the potential for virus or destruction of the Fuze. If you open source and a novice tries to mod the FW they could ruin the player unless there is some type of revert back to a safe firmware. Also there are people out there who dont like sansa as is evidanced by the amount of people who flame these boards, It would not suprise me to see viruses developed for the fuze if this happened.

  If you were to only download the official firmware updates directly from the SanDisk servers, you would be no more prone to virii than you are currently. Not to mention the fact that people are probably less likely to target an open-source product simply because it is seen as being more ethically “good”.

  If both the official firmware and the open-source alternatives were available concurrently, the choice to install an unofficial firmware would be up to you. It’s not as if there aren’t already people with semi-bricked, white screen of deaths (which may or may not be replaced by SanDisk) and they are running the official firmware. I don’t think that virii are a serious threat in this case (there are plenty of open-source programs out there, very few have associated virii: any malevolent code is quickly spotted since the source code is available to view by anyone, from day one). 

Message Edited by Ellipsis on 04-03-2009 07:41 PM

@ellipsis wrote:


@conversionbox wrote:
My only concern with open sourcing the firmware would be the potential for virus or destruction of the Fuze. If you open source and a novice tries to mod the FW they could ruin the player unless there is some type of revert back to a safe firmware. Also there are people out there who dont like sansa as is evidanced by the amount of people who flame these boards, It would not suprise me to see viruses developed for the fuze if this happened.


 

  If you were to only download the official firmware updates directly from the SanDisk servers, you would be no more prone to virii than you are currently. Not to mention the fact that people are probably less likely to target an open-source product simply because it is seen as being more ethically “good”.

 

  If both the official firmware and the open-source alternatives were available concurrently, the choice to install an unofficial firmware would be up to you. It’s not as if there aren’t already people with semi-bricked, white screen of deaths (which may or may not be replaced by SanDisk) and they are running the official firmware. I don’t think that virii are a serious threat in this case (there are plenty of open-source programs out there, very few have associated virii: any malevolent code is quickly spotted since the source code is available to view by anyone, from day one). 

 

Message Edited by Ellipsis on 04-03-2009 07:41 PM

I agree with you but I just feel there needs to be some standards for non-sandisk created stuff that way any issues can be avoided, and prevent completely bricking the fuze.

tenzip wrote: 

If they put open-source code into their product, it all becomes open-source, as they have to publish the source code.  I think.  IANAE.

 

This is technically incorrect, at least depending upon which licence is used (e.g. GPL, FreeBSD, etc.). However, this is somewhat irrelevant, since the official firmware updates’ code would already be open-source upon release (that is the suggestion). A good example to study in this case would be Sun’s current VirtualBox model: two very similar versions of the same software exist, one open-source, one proprietary. The open-source version is slightly more limited in functionality, although both are free in the monetary sense.

Conversionbox wrote: 

I agree with you but I just feel there needs to be some standards for non-sandisk created stuff that way any issues can be avoided, and prevent completely bricking the fuze.

Exactly.  Although ‘standards’ might not be the correct word to use.  Trying to constrain open-source devs is approximately like herding cats.

Having insight into the ‘official’ firmware, without having to reverse engineer and disassemble the code, would be a boon.  Having a series of button presses on startup to revert to a base/default system would be the solution to the ‘brick’ problem.

And of course, SanDisk can disallow any warranty for players that aren’t using the ‘official’ firmware.  At your own risk, etc., but if an ‘unbrick’ option is available, it wouldn’t be an issue.

Edit for tyop.

Message Edited by tenzip on 04-03-2009 11:57 AM

@tenzip wrote:

 

Edit for tyop.

Message Edited by tenzip on 04-03-2009 11:57 AM

Cute. Back on subject, the open-source firmware can be uploaded to SanDisk’s website, who scans it for viruses so there’s no problem there. However, the biggest problem to solve is not really up to SanDisk, the firmware belongs to AMS(Austrian-Micro-Systems), they just license it to Sandisk along with the Hardware(CPU,Auido DSP etc.), and they have an interest not to release it, so nVidia for example, can’t steal it.Rockbox has the Datasheets under a NDA(Non-Disclosure Agreement), so maybe you can go that route.

I very much doubt that Sansa will ever release the Fuze’s firmware to the FOSS community. For various reason, not the least being licensing issues. Apart from that, I suspect the firmware is, in some parts, very low-level stuff. Not so easy to get into …

My idea would be something else: a well-documented stardard API/ABI/runtime environment for media player devices, shared among all the big hardware companies. A clear hardware abstraction layer on top of which the entire user interface could be built by whoever cares to write it. Actually, something like that is already in existence, it’s the Android platform. Androids hardware requirements might just be a bit hefty, though.

Oh, well … The Fuze is quite OK for the time being. I hope mine will serve me for a few more years. Until then, I guess, the entire market of mobile multimedia devices will have evolved quite a bit, with multimedia players, smart phones, ebook readers and whatnot growing closer together.

I do think it would be nice to optionally disable features we don’t use.  The firmware already does this when it comes to Rhapsody channels, so it should be possible.

I see two approaches: (1) if empty, don’t display; (2) Let the user turn main menu sections on/off in Settings.   The former might be easier since it doesn’t require adding more to the UI, just altering the logic.

The if-empty-remove option would work well for video and photos, but not for FM and voice, which are never empty. Those would need a toggle in Settings.

I’d love to see Podcasts and Audiobooks promotable to the main menu; this was a feature I really really liked on the iPod Nano 3G. I use both a lot, but they’re at the bottom of the Music menu.  My ideal menu would have Music, Podcasts, Audiobooks, and Settings.  Perhaps a fifth, “Other,” that shows the items that were demoted from the main menu. 

@reviewboy wrote:

My ideal menu would have Music, Podcasts, Audiobooks, and Settings.  Perhaps a fifth, “Other,” that shows the items that were demoted from the main menu. 

Yes, but just put a ‘Main Menu’ selection under ‘Settings’ that would contain the stuff, rather than keep an extra item on the main menu.

This is the way Meizu did it for the miniPlayer.  I really love that thing, I just wish the battery had some life left in it.

Any chance of an official comment on this thread, from/via one of the moderators?

At this time we are not considering an open source firmware solution for any of our Sansa product line, however please do be active on the Sansa Forum with suggestions for future enhancements and communicate with tech support on any issues discovered in new firmware releases. We are always striving to provide a better product and we do use our resources to monitor both of these communication tools.

 

Thank you for your input and support of Sansa!

 

Forum Admin

slotmonsta

That’s probably a good idea, because you never know of the consequences of downloading beta version’s, it could really harm your Fuze player

by the way,it’s also good to know that peoples ideas/problems are actually being looked into by the sansa people

Message Edited by jrdnkasparek on 04-06-2009 02:38 PM

@slotmonsta wrote:

At this time we are not considering an open source firmware solution for any of our Sansa product line, however please do be active on the Sansa Forum with suggestions for future enhancements and communicate with tech support on any issues discovered in new firmware releases. We are always striving to provide a better product and we do use our resources to monitor both of these communication tools.

 

Thank you for your input and support of Sansa!

 

Forum Admin

slotmonsta

For which reason, the Licensing issue referred to above?

Message Edited by yelped on 04-06-2009 04:01 PM

@conversionbox wrote:
My only concern with open sourcing the firmware would be the potential for virus or destruction of the Fuze. If you open source and a novice tries to mod the FW they could ruin the player unless there is some type of revert back to a safe firmware. Also there are people out there who dont like sansa as is evidanced by the amount of people who flame these boards, It would not suprise me to see viruses developed for the fuze if this happened.

Yes, right. That’s why there are no viruses on Windows, with its closed source code, and so many viruses on Linux, which is open-source.

Or is it the other way around???

@flocon wrote:


@conversionbox wrote:
My only concern with open sourcing the firmware would be the potential for virus or destruction of the Fuze. If you open source and a novice tries to mod the FW they could ruin the player unless there is some type of revert back to a safe firmware. Also there are people out there who dont like sansa as is evidanced by the amount of people who flame these boards, It would not suprise me to see viruses developed for the fuze if this happened.


Yes, right. That’s why there are no viruses on Windows, with its closed source code, and so many viruses on Linux, which is open-source.

Or is it the other way around???

there are so many viruses on windows because windows makes up 90+ % of the market. noone cares about writing a virus that would only affect < 3% of the market.

Message Edited by drlucky on 04-06-2009 01:20 PM

@drlucky wrote:


@flocon wrote:


@conversionbox wrote:
My only concern with open sourcing the firmware would be the potential for virus or destruction of the Fuze. If you open source and a novice tries to mod the FW they could ruin the player unless there is some type of revert back to a safe firmware. Also there are people out there who dont like sansa as is evidanced by the amount of people who flame these boards, It would not suprise me to see viruses developed for the fuze if this happened.


Yes, right. That’s why there are no viruses on Windows, with its closed source code, and so many viruses on Linux, which is open-source.

Or is it the other way around???


there are so many viruses on windows because windows makes up 90+ % of the market. noone cares about writing a virus that would only affect < 3% of the market.

Message Edited by drlucky on 04-06-2009 01:20 PM

Windows is a closed source code, but anybody who has ever taken a programming course can write code for windows. Its simple. All open sourcing does is make things easier, for people with honest intentions, and people whose intentions are not so honest, to cause trouble. And as Dr Lucky Said… Nobody writes viruses for lunix is because its such a small niche in the market.