Gapless users only a vocal minority? Apple and Cowon don't think so...

Not when the facts and research support mine - I tend to discard the rest as irrelevant, especially when no facts support them.

Let me spell it out in A-B-C fasion:

Apple doesn’t cater to a vocal minority.  Say what you will aobut the company, they are MASTERS at marketing, which, by definition, means that they know their customer base.  intimately.  in the DAP market, their customer base is the largest in the world.  This is not subject to discussion.  it’s simply a fact.  This company, having the largest customer base in this market, made a business decision to implement a feature.  Said feature was not limited to one model but encompassed several across their lineup.  That meant, in very simple terms, that it was profitable for them to develope this feature which meant that A LOT of people either asked for it, knew what it was or would just simply use it.

What part of this oh-so-simple progression escapes you?

Given these facts, I trust the other gentle readers of this thread will now understand why I put little faith in otherconjecture or prognostications.

Message Edited by roj on 07-31-2009 03:14 PM

I never rant.  I make cases.  I present facts - always facts.  Then I request features.  If I don’t get them, I take my money and shop elsewhere where I CAN obtain said features.  That’s what customers do.

It’s an inordinately simple process.

And personally, I prefer a fine rum - twelve year Brugal or Appleton over ice on the top tier of my back deck hits it for me.

Message Edited by roj on 07-31-2009 03:13 PM

@roj wrote:

Not when the facts and research support mine - I tend to discard the rest as irrelevant, especially when no facts support them.

 

Let me spell it out in A-B-C fasion:

 

Apple doesn’t cater to a vocal minority.  Say what you will aobut the company, they are MASTERS at marketing, which, by definition, means that they know their customer base.  intimately.  in the DAP market, their customer base is the largest in the world.  This is not subject to discussion.  it’s simply a fact.  This company, having the largest customer base in this market, made a business decision to implement a feature.  Said feature was not limited to one model but encompassed several across their lineup.  That meant, in very simple terms, that it was profitable for them to develope this feature which meant that A LOT of people either asked for it, knew what it was or would just simply use it.

 

What part of this oh-so-simple progression escapes you?

 

 

Given these facts, I trust the other gentle readers of this thread will now understand why I put little fait in otherconjecture or prognostications.

One could also argue that with their overwhelming market share that they could afford the investment involved to implement the feature. You’re forgetting the Microsoft Zune, by the way, they also have gapless playback…and they could afford to implement it due to their overwhelming computer market share. Cowon only implemented it after their new flagship started selling briskly (in terms of their product line, anyways).

Very true on all counts.

However, now we have THREE vendors with gapless.  Also, Sandisk wanted to become a major player in the market, leveraging their memory products market share.  That means that they too could afford to implement, building on your logic.

@roj wrote:

Very true on all counts.

 

However, now we have THREE vendors with gapless.  Also, Sandisk wanted to become a major player in the market, leveraging their memory products market share.  That means that they too could afford to implement, building on your logic.

I would think that if Cowon could afford it, so could SanDisk, certainly.

Glad to see someone else got where I was going.

@roj wrote:

I never rant.  I make cases.  I present facts - always facts.  Then I request features.  If I don’t get them, I take my money and shop elsewhere where I CAN obtain said features.  That’s what customers do.

 

 

It’s an inordinately simple process.

 

 

And personally, I prefer a fine rum - twelve year Brugal or Appleton over ice on the top tier of my back deck hits it for me.

Message Edited by roj on 07-31-2009 03:13 PM

Why do you care so much if gapless is implemented in the fuze?  Do you own a ton of Sandisk stock?  If gapless is that important to you, as you have mentioned, there are other players that have this feature.

The fuze and clip are nice “little” players, but even with gapless capability, they would be far from perfect.

It’s of little consequence to me as I’ve found my perfect player, and now use my fuze or clip mainly for podcasts.

And remember…one man’s “making cases” is another’s RANT…:smileyvery-happy:

No, we own a ton of Fuze’s, specifically THREE of them (two 8Gb and one 4Gb).  We also own a Clip (4Gb).

I won’t touch Apple garbage because that’s exactly what it is.  I won’t touch a Zune because it’s pathetically castrated by Micro$haft.

We’re no strangers to players.  Apart from the above we own:

Samsung YP-P2 (4Gb)

Cowon A2 (two of them)

Cowon X5

Cowon I7

I won’t list the Creative Labs dreck - that’s morepoorly built, crappy sounding poser crap like all their sound cards.

The Cowons have the most perfect sound of ANY DAP out there (and I’ve researched / acquired / returned a LOT of them) but Rockbox is poser garbage.

The Fuzes are the Road Warriors, the Cowon A2s and X5 the heavy lifters and the I7 the Ultimate Road Warrior when I jet because of its awesome battery life, tough construction and killer features.

But none fo the Cowons have gapless.

Or ReplayGain.

Which, given my multi-terabyte music collection (both lossless and mp3) are important to me (and the rest of my family).  Music doesn’t just live with us - it IS us.

That’s why I’m so “passionate” about it.

My next purchase WILL be a S9 - likely a christmas gift to myself.  But it still won’t have ReplayGain.

As to my perfect player, it would have the audio quality, feature set, format support and tough construction of a Cowon, ReplayGain, Gapless, Folder support, a solid state 500Gb drive with both eSata and USB interfaces and a minimum of 50 hour battery life (with the battery lasting nothing less than five years).

And it wouldn’t be made by either Micro$haft or Apple.

I don’t see that appearing any time soon, so I’d like my Road Warriors to have as much of the equation that they can.

I’m very outspoken, likely because of my profession and I never table a statement without having done my homework first.  In my line of work, it’s professional suicide to do so.

Message Edited by roj on 07-31-2009 05:04 PM

Ehh…so be it.

I really don’t care one way or another if gapless is implemented in Sandisk’s products, or even if they survive as a company.  This might sound callous, but the strong always survive.

I don’t make cases, I don’t rant…I just let my pocketbook do the talking; and I have…

I go a little further.  i prefer excellence and those with decent business pracitices to survive.  That’s one reason I’ll never buy another Sony or Creative Labs product.

My pocketbook is a means to make the market do what I want - as every consumer’s pocketbook is.

Message Edited by roj on 07-31-2009 05:19 PM

@roj wrote:

I go a little further.  i prefer excellence and those with decent business pracitices to survive.  That’s one reason I’ll never buy another Sony or Creative Labs product.

 

My pocketbook is a means to make the market do what I want - as every consumer’s pocketbook is.

Message Edited by roj on 07-31-2009 05:19 PM

I still don’t get why you are so passionate about the Fuze and/or the clip.  Like I said, they are far from perfect, and adding gapless into the mix isn’t going to change that.  

But, please, don’t stop me if you think you can change the world…I just know better… :smileyvery-happy:

Hey, the only code I live by is my own.  No one else has to follow it or even understand it. :)  It has served me well for almost five decades.

I’m not interested in making the Sandisks perfect players.  I am VERY interested in making them perfect for MY needs (and those of my family).

That includes gapless and ReplayGain.

If others can benefit (and aparrently MANY others can if Apple and Cowon feel similarly) then that’s a bonus.

@roj wrote:

Hey, the only code I live by is my own.  No one else has to follow it or even understand it. :)  It has served me well for almost five decades.

 

I’m not interested in making the Sandisks perfect players.  I am VERY interested in making them perfect for MY needs (and those of my family).

 

That includes gapless and ReplayGain.

 

If others can benefit (and aparrently MANY others can if Apple and Cowon feel similarly) then that’s a bonus.

Dream on…

If you think your rants are going to influence Sandisk…I have some premium florida swampland for sale…

my comments may or may not make them think.  however, awareness of what the market is doing WILL make a company change course.  there is only one thing that motivates a corporation - profit.  hence, if profit can be made, a company will do something.  greed conquerors all in that world.

@roj wrote:
my comments may or may not make them think.  however, awareness of what the market is doing WILL make a company change course.  there is only one thing that motivates a corporation - profit.  hence, if profit can be made, a company will do something.  greed conquerors all in that world.

I still can’t understand your gung-ho attitude towards Sandisk’s products.  Nice, yes…Revolutionary … Hell no…

There are a ton of better players out there.

Make it your life’s goal to make Sandisk’s players perfect for you…Me… I’ve moved on…and I’m very happy I did…

ROJ, imo your initial post is quite disrespectful. While we can understand that some people do have a great desire for gapless playback, many others such as myself don’t really care about it. It is disrectful to mention specific products of competing manufacturers here. You mentioned those  models by other makers that have gapless playback, however you didn’t mention that those are more than double the cost of a Fuze. The processor on the Fuze might not be powerful enough to handle gapless, especially when transition to files with a different compression type or bitrate than the previous file.

The Fuze is not perfect. No mp3 player will give you everything you want. I have already mentioned several of the things I want in a player, however I doubt that I will see all of them (or even most of them) together in a single player. You need to choose from what is available. You can mention what you want, and if enough other people want it, and it is easy enough to implement, then it might occur in future models. I have not seen so many others asking for gapless. Perhaps you could do a poll of what people want in a player, and see how many have gapless near the top of their list.

Why would I reinvent the wheel?  Three major vendors already support it so that’s tacit evidence that people out there in ConsumerLand want it.  No corporation wanting to stay in business wastes money implementing features unnecessarily.

Also, I’m quite aware that the Fuze is not perfect.

Apart from the fact that this is quite easy to see (I won’t bore anyone what the list of what I don’t like about the player), more than one individual has taken the time to state the obvious right here in this thread.

The fact that no player will give me everything I want is even more obvious.  You will note the variety of players I / we already own and the various uses thereof - I made that quite clear earlier.

However, I’m a firm believer that there’s always room for improvement and if there is indeed a market for such improvement then it should be seriously considered. If in fact the hardware is not up to the job then Sandisk should just do something revolutionary and Just Say So.  That would put the issue to bed once and for all.

Regarding disrespect, that’s neither here nor there.  One man’s disrespect is another’s forthrightness and yet another man’s bluntness.

As it stands, my ideal player specs aside (I already made that statement in an earlier post) and examining the issue from purely a practical perspective, I’m looking for a player that natively supports ReplayGain and gapless playback with superb sound quality and support for a plethora of formats.  The two front runners for me are Sandisk and Cowon.  Cowon has gapless and no ReplayGain.  Sandisk has ReplayGain and no gapless.  Sandisk has very good audio quality and Cowon has great audio quality.  I own a Fuze.  i don’t own a S9 - yet.  If the S9 comes through with both, I’ll switch i a heartbeat.  If the Fuze gets there first, I’ll happily keep using it.

The bottom line:

He who gives me what I want gets my green.  That maxim applies globally to all consumers and every company in existance today.

So I’ll wait and see.

Anyway, I’m off camping for the next three days without ANY electonic devices so that’s it for me.

Message Edited by roj on 07-31-2009 09:45 PM

@roj wrote:

 

Anyway, I’m off camping for the next three days without ANY electonic devices so that’s it for me.

 

Thank God!

I didn’t even know what gapless is until I wiki’d it now. I honestly don’t notice it on my iPod (I don’t know what I’m even supposed to be looking for). I’d be much happier if I had the superior audio quality of a Sandisk or Sony than gapless on my iPod.

Message Edited by UssjTrunks on 08-01-2009 01:16 PM

@fuze_owner_gb wrote:


@roj wrote:
my comments may or may not make them think.  however, awareness of what the market is doing WILL make a company change course.  there is only one thing that motivates a corporation - profit.  hence, if profit can be made, a company will do something.  greed conquerors all in that world.


I still can’t understand your gung-ho attitude towards Sandisk’s products.  Nice, yes…Revolutionary … Hell no…

 

There are a ton of better players out there.

 

Make it your life’s goal to make Sandisk’s players perfect for you…Me… I’ve moved on…and I’m very happy I did…

To Sandisk & Forum Participants:

Please don’t take the above post as a condemnation on Sansa products.  Everybody has different wants and needs out of a portable music player.  I can only speak of the fuze & clip as these are the only Sansa products I own.  They sound and work great; but are just a bit small on capacity for my needs.  Also, my wife wanted a player that had it’s own dedicated software for file management instead of using  Winamp, Media Monkey, Foobar or others.

So, with those factors in play, and to keep peace in the family, we have switched to different primary players.  I still think that the fuze and clip are fine units and will ideally suit many in the marketplace.

I just wanted to set the record straight.  I had no intentions of “trash-talking” Sansa products…

Carry on…:smiley: