Gapless users only a vocal minority? Apple and Cowon don't think so...

I really don’t know how the Fuze works, but (and please don’t get mad at me for asking this, because some people are a little touchy about the subject) . . .

How hard would it be to implament gapless into the software?

My new primary player supports gapless, and it definitely is a welcome feature.  I don’t know if I would jump off the highest building if it didn’t have it…but it is nice nonetheless.

I agree.

Let’s face facts… the Fuze is the Kia Spectra of the PMP market… the S9 is the Rolls Royce. The iPod is the Toyota Camry.

You get what you pay for.

So stop whining that just about the cheapest player you could find is missing some high end features.

Buy a Rolls or a Camry.

You most certainly DO get what you pay for.

“You get what you pay for.”

I hate that expression! People often get much less than what they pay for. Sometimes a lower priced item IS better.

“So stop whining that just about the cheapest player you could find is missing some high end features.”

I wouldn’t call gapless a high end feature. It seems to be  a feature that most users don’t care about.

Oh, I agree OCCASIONALLY a lower price item is better. Sometimes. Very occasionally. But more often then not I have been proven wrong on that point.

  • Hand tools 

  • plumbing fixtures

  • tents

  • and yes, MP3 players

  • shoes

  • clothes

Yes, I consider gapless a high end feature because only audio experts, aka audiophiles FOR THE MOST PART, are the ones that clamor for it. And most of the more expensive devices have it.

I also consider OTF playlisting a high end feature simply because the “value player” Fuze doesn’t support it and pretty much every device that costs a lot more does.

I notice the one thing you don’t disagree with me on is “it is about the cheapest player you can find”… that should tell you something. :wink:

Message Edited by Peregrine on 08-03-2009 02:56 PM

@roj wrote:

No, we own a ton of Fuze’s, specifically THREE of them (two 8Gb and one 4Gb).  We also own a Clip (4Gb).

@roj wrote:

My pocketbook is a means to make the market do what I want - as every consumer’s pocketbook is.

Your pocketbook has already spoken…four times.

I was on the big iPod forum (ipodlounge) back before they had gapless, and I can tell you: it was a vocal minority there as well. It was iPod owners, of course, with the same argument: that they wouldn’t buy an iPod without gapless…but they already had!

Apple implemented it as they implement nearly all features: new players only. If you want gapless, you buy a new iPod. Its not a strategy for supporting existing customers, its a strategy for getting existing customers to buy the same thing twice. Apple is one of the few companies that can do things that are very anti-customer and still be loved by its fan base.

QFT, As A computer tech I have seen it since i started, they do this with mac and all their other products, in some cases people where able to just copy the features over to older models or hell get an updated driver rather then buy it, yet their fanboi’s still clamor for their crappy hardware and software :confused:

“Oh, I agree OCCASIONALLY a lower price item is better. Sometimes. Very occasionally. But more often then not I have been proven wrong on that point.”

When discounted prices are taken into account, one can often get higher quality at a lower price. I find that to especially be true for shoes and clothing, but also occasionally for electronics as well.

"

I notice the one thing you don’t disagree with me on is “it is about the cheapest player you can find”… that should tell you something. :wink:"

It tells me that it is a great buy. This is a Sandisk forum, so I won’t list the models of other makers that cost more than a Fuze and imo are much lower in quality than a Fuze. Most people here can probably name a number of them.

bdb wrote: 

I was on the big iPod forum (ipodlounge) back before they had gapless, and I can tell you: it was a vocal minority there as well. It was iPod owners, of course, with the same argument: that they wouldn’t buy an iPod without gapless…but they already had!

I imagine it is pretty rare for fuze non-owners to post on this forum at all, or for ipod non-owners to post on the ipod forum. So it really isn’t surprising to me that it is only the owners talking about this. Suppose I had decided to not buy a Fuze, because of lack of gapless, and instead I bought an iPod. Do you really think I’m going to sign up to this forum just so that I can say “Hey, the Fuze looked like a good deal until I found out it didn’t have gapless playback. Sorry guys, I bought an iPod” ?  Of course not. I wouldn’t waste my time. There would be no advantage to me. On the other hand, as a Fuze owner I can at least hold out hope that gapless will be implimented - which will improve the device I already own.

It’s hard to know exactly how many people care about this feature. Counting forum posts will not tell us that information. People who refuse to buy a Fuze because of lack of gapless playback are not going to post about it; and many people who buy a Fuze, but still really want gapless playback will still not post about it because they think there is no point.

Saying “the Fuze is cheap, so we can’t expect gapless” is a cop-out. Price really is not the same as quality of product. There are countless instances when a cheaper product the the superior product - especially when it involves new technology and/or popular brand names. Don’t kid yourself. The price of the Fuze has nothing to with this.

@karadoc wrote:

 . . .Suppose I had decided to not buy a Fuze, because of lack of gapless, and instead I bought an iPod. Do you really think I’m going to sign up to this forum just so that I can say “Hey, the Fuze looked like a good deal until I found out it didn’t have gapless playback. Sorry guys, I bought an iPod” ?  Of course not. I wouldn’t waste my time.


You’d be surprised! Many have.

A perverted form of self-indulging personal satisfaction, I guess.

karadoc wrote: 

Saying “the Fuze is cheap, so we can’t expect gapless” is a cop-out. Price really is not the same as quality of product. There are countless instances when a cheaper product the the superior product - especially when it involves new technology and/or popular brand names. Don’t kid yourself. The price of the Fuze has nothing to with this.

 

Especially since it is purely a programming issue.  Since Sansas are high volume sellers (compared to anything but Ipod) the cost per player would be pretty low.

 

Some argue that most people don’t care about gapless.  Most people don’t care about classical music either, but if a player for some reason couldn’t play classical, it would be another defect decried by a vocal minority. 

@donp wrote:


karadoc wrote: 

Saying “the Fuze is cheap, so we can’t expect gapless” is a cop-out. Price really is not the same as quality of product. There are countless instances when a cheaper product the the superior product - especially when it involves new technology and/or popular brand names. Don’t kid yourself. The price of the Fuze has nothing to with this.

 


Especially since it is purely a programming issue.  Since Sansas are high volume sellers (compared to anything but Ipod) the cost per player would be pretty low.

 

Some argue that most people don’t care about gapless.   Most people don’t care about classical music either, but if a player for some reason couldn’t play classical, it would be another defect decried by a vocal minority. 

 

My wife would buy one of those in a heartbeat!!  :smileyvery-happy:

I am not saying the Fuze is inferior to anything. For the sound quality alone it is a great value.

But I stand by what I said. “You get what you pay for”.

What does the Fuze have that other players don’t? One thing that most of the big names don’t. Expandable memory. Huge, sure, and in fact sold it for me.

What else, though? Nothing. owait… FLC and OGG was added.

Spend a little more on a Zune. Do you get more features? Heck yes. Not only do you get gapless and OTF playlisting (which is huge to me and blows my mind that the Fuze doesn’t…) but the FM radio in the Zune supports RDS. Wicked cool feature in a DAP.

Then there was my previous player. $199 for a 12GB non-expandable player. Was it worth the extra money and less storage? A resounding yes. If the company hadn’t folded I would have gladly paid another $200 for a replacement. Why? Because it’s worth it. Name a feature and the Vibez has it (except RDS and no video).

$80 8 GB Fuze vs $199 12 GB Vibez.

Vibez supported FLC, OGG and DRM, MSC or MTP, gapless, OTF playlisting, a parametric EQ, allowed setting pics as wallpaper, allowed you to change font colors and even create your own themes (colors), FM radio, had 3 games on it (Soduku anyone?), had an APPEND option to add music to the end of your playlist or INSERT to add behind the currently playing track, had animated screens that you could set as a background, allowed settng shortcuts to more then just 2 things, left hand - right hand orientation, had play options that would blow your mind (play by decade, play recently listened to, play tracks that you never played and more), you could listen to it plugged into your PC… I could go on. Every time someone requests a new feature I fondly think “man, my Vibez did that…”. I got exactly what I paid for with that. EVERYTHING.

So excuse me, please, for thinking of the Fuze as a Camry compared to the Lexus I used to own.

I damaged my Fuze. The battery life is now minimal. Unlike some folks I take responsibility for my own actions. A bit frustrated because I did have an issue I thought was RMA worthy but before I ever called I plugged it into a damaged USB port. It got hotter then hell and now the battery lasts maybe 2 hours. I won’t try to pass it off to Sansa now as broken, even though I probably could have.

I keep eyeing the $40 used ones on Ebay because they are so dirt cheap. I just can’t quite pull the trigger though. Yet. I still might. What makes me keep considering a player I am not totally in love with? Price. It’s the value player. You get some of the features you want, but not the heated seats. :wink:

As we roll into the future, more and more people will want to carry one device. I personally like having 2, especially one as small as the Fuze. My wife always had a DAP and a phone. 2 generations of phones and DAP’s. Her latest phone, she was like “I am going to try putting my music on the Voyager”. She hasn’t looked back. IMO if Sandisk wants to thrive into the future they need to cram as many features into their devices as they possibly can, even if only 10% of buyers appreciate it. You need to cram it so full of features then when your Fuze falls of the cruise ship railing, you don’t even blink and you run right out and buy another one. Just like I felt about the Vibez because it did EVERYTHING that many players still don’t.

Lastly, the other reason I got a Fuze was because I heard the developers are active with updates. I first got my Fuze and haf my collection was OGG so I was out nearly half my entrie collection. 3-4 weeks later they added OGG. Boom I got all my music back. So I do applaud Sansa for that (but I am nervous about the way they seem to have abandoned the View).

-FIN-

Message Edited by Peregrine on 08-04-2009 09:35 PM

Flac and Ogg support?  Cowon has that.  The iTouch has that via a third-party app but ALL the Apple garbage has pathetic audio quality compared top the Cowons and the Fuze / Clip.  The Fuze has Replaygain - the real spec.  Apple has their proprietary spin on it (useless in the real world).  The Zune has decent sound quality and that’s all it has going for it.  Apple lacks folder support - a must-have for intelligent music management that is versatile.  Cowon has that too.

In the end, the Fuze has:

ReplayGain

Superior format support

great (but not quite superb - close, though) audio quality

reasonable (but not great) battery life

tough construction

folder support

great looks

a more than decent UI

a competent feature set that appeals to those of us that don’t like gimmickry

expandability

…and all this comes at a VERY reasonable price tag.

I can recommend this player to several demographics of users.

I can’t do that with any of the Apples unless the ripoff known as iTunes is a prerequisite and the Zune is crippled by Micro$shaft - period.

That means that when all is said and done, the Fuze is quite close to an ideal player when you balance quality / features / price.  Give it gapless and 50 hour battery life and it becomes unbeatable in its class - and several classes above it.

The above analysis (minus ReplayGain which wasn’t available when I did it) is why I own one as well as several Cowons.

Oh, and someone called the iPod the Camry of DAPs?  Not a chance - it’s more like the Chevy Cavalier and I wouldn’t buy that crap with YOUR money.

I called the iPod the Camry because:

Sheep buy them because they hear how great they are. and they are the top seller which the Camry was for a long time (or was it the Accord?..). More popular for whatever reason then the other brands I named.

Everything you mention that the Fuze has, my Vibez had AND all the features I listed above. I’m telling ya’, man. That thing was the s***! The handfull of people that were lucky enough to get one were very blessed. I feel lucky to have experienced such a gem of a player. :D

Moment of silence for the Trekstor Vibez.

*

hehehehe

/edit/ Honestly, if the Fuze had OTF playlisting and gapless and a few more play options… I could be as loyal to them as I was to the Vibez. Don’t get me wrong, I REALLY like the Fuze. I just don’t LOVE it.

Message Edited by Peregrine on 08-04-2009 09:57 PM

Sheep buy them because they hear how great they are. and they are the top seller which the Camry was for a long time (or was it the Accord?..). More popular for whatever reason then the other brands I named.

You got me with the first three words.

You win. :slight_smile:

Are we still talking about gapless playback, or have we moved on to talking about cars?

I think we sidetracked into ‘getting what you pay for’.

Cars = analogy.

Analogy: an inference that if things agree in some respects they probably agree in others

:wink:

Now that I  have a player that supports gapless, I can appreciate it’s virtues…However, I personally don’t require or desire gapless playback all of the time.  I still use my Fuze and Clips for my “running around” players, when I am popping in and out of the car or am getting distracted by life in general. 

Gapless is fantastic when you have the time do devote to a whole album or CD without being distracted.  The rest of the time, Sansas products fit the bill just fine…:smiley:

OK, all rhetoric aside, let’s cut to the chase.

Some questions need to be answered here and they need to be answered by Sandisk.

1)  Is the Fuze hardware caspable of handling Gapless?  If it’s not, game over.

2)  Is Sandisk actively considering or already working on Gapless?  If it is not AND will not consider it, game over.  If it is, can we have a rough (certainly not carved in stone) idea of when this will happen.

Either a Sandisk rep or someone very close to Sandisk and a known reliable source needs to answer these questions in an up-front manner.  No wishy washy “maybes” or “could bes” or PR spin.  At least one of those questions will result in a Binary answer: yes or no.

So, what’s the story Sandisk?  Your customers (and even more importantly your potential customers whose buying decisions you may wish to influence) want to know.

Waiting to hear from you…

Message Edited by roj on 08-05-2009 08:58 AM