MP3 sound quality

@tmck39042 wrote:

I would like to hear opinions and suggestions on the mp3 players with the very best sound quality.  I am having Rhapsody compatibility issues with a very old Sansa e280R mp3 player, so I recently bought a clip/zip to replace it (something small for walking).  I did not do my homework, and I know this device is moderately priced ($39 at Best Buy), but I was hoping for the same richness and sound quality that I get from my iphone and my old e280R.  It’s may be close enough for others, but it’s not close enough for me, so I’m disappointed. 

 

I’ve talked to Sandisk technical support, and they assure me that the technical specs on sound quality for the clip/zip are equivalent to the e280R, but it’s not to my ear.  And I’ve tried adjusting the sound using the equalizer settings - no luck.

 

So, I’ve resolved myself to losing the very high sound quality I like, since there are no other Sansa Rhapsody compatible devices out there considered superior by Sandisk.  But I’m curious - what are the very best mp3 players out there (from anybody), with a sound comparable or better than that of an Iphone.

 

Any ideas, opinions, or information to share???

The Clip/Clip+/Clip Zip , original Fuze (not Fuze+) , and the V2 E2xx series players are the best of the buch , Sansa-wise. Of course, I’m referring to non-Rhapsody use…  

From what I’ve read, you should find the sound of the Clips to be even better than that of the iPhone (or, at the very least, certainly no “worse”).

Rhapsody dropped RAX format support this year, a real shame for those of us who have enjoyed the R-series Sansa e200.

As you’ve discovered, current Rhapsody media is now 160kb/s WMA (Windows Media Audio) format. This format is used for all of the current devices, and sounds very good, especially using the  v2 version of the e200. The advantage of using a newer device is that you have the Rhapsody Channels feature, no longer an option with the original R series.

Your ears are not fooling you. The problem is basic electronics. Though the processor of the new machines is superior to the older R series’ PortalPlayer chip, the diminutive Clip model has a much smaller power source than the big e200’s battery. The function of a digital audio player is to decode the data, and output a varying current signal for your headphones.

Quite simply, the e200 has more “horsepower”. If you use a more efficient earphone, especially the “in-ear monitor” type, you can recover a lot of that lost efficiency. The Clip strikes that fine balance between raw power, and play time. Overall, the sound of the little Clips is great, but there is a little difference that you can hear. The Austria Microsystems device does have a richer sound, but a little less impact; this is because the power source is smaller.

If you search patiently, there are v2 devices out there, but they were superceded by the original Sansa Fuze (the original one is square with a rotating scroll wheel). The v2 is actually an e200 case with a Sansa Fuze nestled within. 

I really like the Clip Zip. I carry one together with the Clip+, having different music on each machine. The Zip’s color display gives me album art like the trusty e200, and it’s size makes it really handy. But when I really want to hear the detail, that big e280 is the machine of choice. And its new 1300mAh battery lasts till the cows come home.

Bob  :smileyvery-happy:

Thanks for everyone’s input. 

At this point I plan to use the zip/clip, but also try to develop some workarounds so that I can continue to use the e280R player as well, with it’s superior sound quality.  I have created a playlist of all the music that was on the e280R, and will probably reformat the device monthly, if that is what is required to update the track license - then download the playlist, which will require 20 minutes or so once the bugs are worked out.

Appreciate all the input, especially Bob’s confirmation that the music quality really is less on the smaller players.

Which headphones are you using? The Clip players work best with earphones or headphones that are 16-32 ohms(especially 16 ohms) and are very efficient. Using headphones over around 60 ohms with my Clip players and without a supplemental amp I do notice a decrease in sound quality. If you have higher impedance headphones(over 60 ohms), you might want to try using a Fiio E6 amp(around $25) between your player and headphones. This even  lets me use my 150 ohm and 300 ohm headphones with my Clip+.

@tmck39042 wrote:

Thanks for everyone’s input. 

 

At this point I plan to use the zip/clip, but also try to develop some workarounds so that I can continue to use the e280R player as well, with it’s superior sound quality.  I have created a playlist of all the music that was on the e280R, and will probably reformat the device monthly, if that is what is required to update the track license - then download the playlist, which will require 20 minutes or so once the bugs are worked out.

 

Appreciate all the input, especially Bob’s confirmation that the music quality really is less on the smaller players.

That’s really not what he said. He said the bigger unit has more output power. And often louder is interpreted as better quality.

@marvin_martian wrote:


@tmck39042 wrote:

Thanks for everyone’s input. 

 

At this point I plan to use the zip/clip, but also try to develop some workarounds so that I can continue to use the e280R player as well, with it’s superior sound quality.  I have created a playlist of all the music that was on the e280R, and will probably reformat the device monthly, if that is what is required to update the track license - then download the playlist, which will require 20 minutes or so once the bugs are worked out.

 

Appreciate all the input, especially Bob’s confirmation that the music quality really is less on the smaller players.


That’s really not what he said. He said the bigger unit has more output power. And often louder is interpreted as better quality.

In fact, what he said was, “The Austria Microsystems device does have a richer sound , but a little less impact; this is because the power source is smaller.”  :wink:

The clip amp is about as loud as any battery powered device gets. If yours sounds much quieter then anything else, its probably just the volume cap.

There is also a different processor in the earlier Sansa, the Portal Player chip. It has a different digital front end to consider as well (the D/A convertor) and a different EQ curve.

I was comparing the two platforms Clip and e200 series) using the v2 e280, which also uses the Austria Microsystems device. It’s fairer comparison, as the primary difference between the two is the available power.

Both the earlier e200 and the new machines stand on their own merits. The fact that we get hours of playback from that little postage stamp sized lithium cell is the real magic. Looking back 20 years, I would naver have thought it possible!

On that thought, the Zip is charged up. Time to listen to more of my book…

Bob  :smileyvery-happy:

@neutron_bob wrote:

There is also a different processor in the earlier Sansa, the Portal Player chip. It has a different digital front end to consider as well (the D/A convertor) and a different EQ curve.

 

I was comparing the two platforms Clip and e200 series) using the v2 e280, which also uses the Austria Microsystems device. It’s fairer comparison, as the primary difference between the two is the available power.

 

 

 

Both have the same battery voltage, so there is no difference in power they can theoretically supply.  I doubt there is any difference, since the E200v1, E200v2, Clip and Clip Zip all use similar AMS DACs driven at the same voltage.  Or if there is a difference, its probably just some software thing (and hopefully not present in rockbox unless we have made a mistake).

The main difference is just that the e200v1 has the AMS insufficiently isolated from the SOC’s noise and uses capacitive coupled outputs, so its a little noiser and have trouble driving very low impedance headphones without bass rolloff.  

The players with the best dound quality ar the true 24-bit portable music players. The first is the Colorfly C4:

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/colorfly-c4-pro–pound;549/9940

Then there’s the DX100:

http://www.ibasso.com/en/products/show.asp?ID=78

Next year Neil Young is coming out with a player called the “Pono” which is backed my many music labels. 

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/neil-young-expands-pono-digital-to-analog-music-service-20120927

Neil Young has always been an advocate for better sound quality stating that the nornal MP3 only maintains 5% of the original master recording.

These players are expensive. The digital audio converters (DACs) aren’t cheap. I have a DAC hooked up to my computer and use some really good quality headphones to play 24-bit music.

The best place to buy 24-bit music is here:

https://www.hdtracks.com

Now there is a big debate on if you can tell the difference between CD qualty and 24-bit Masters. IMHO if you have a great sound system or great headphones there is a noticeable difference. To me it is very obvious. However my suggestion to everyone is to try it and see what you think. 

Hopefully these DAC’s and 24-bit PMP’s will come down in price soon.

According to Nail Young, Steve Jobs was very interested in improving the sound qualty of recordings for his customers. However since he’s passed, Apple no longer has the same interest. This is why Neil Young is pursuing making his own 24-bit PMP. 

There are other web sites that sell 24-bit music. They are mostly classical. Just hunt around and you wlll find them. 

DAC’s go for less than $100 to thousands. I just have an Audioengine D1 which is very inexpensive. On Hdtracks.com they have some recommendations for software you can play on your computer that support 24-bit music. It’s usually in Flac format, sometimes WAV format. It’s easy to convert the music. My favorite conversion tool is called, “Pro Audio Converter” and is in the Apple App store. There are many others.

Sorry this is so long but I want to give you a complete answer.

@saratoga wrote:


@neutron_bob wrote:

There is also a different processor in the earlier Sansa, the Portal Player chip. It has a different digital front end to consider as well (the D/A convertor) and a different EQ curve.

 

I was comparing the two platforms Clip and e200 series) using the v2 e280, which also uses the Austria Microsystems device. It’s fairer comparison, as the primary difference between the two is the available power.

 

 

 


Both have the same battery voltage, so there is no difference in power they can theoretically supply.  I doubt there is any difference, since the E200v1, E200v2, Clip and Clip Zip all use similar AMS DACs driven at the same voltage.  Or if there is a difference, its probably just some software thing (and hopefully not present in rockbox unless we have made a mistake).

The main difference is just that the e200v1 has the AMS insufficiently isolated from the SOC’s noise and uses capacitive coupled outputs, so its a little noiser and have trouble driving very low impedance headphones without bass rolloff.  

Correct, to a point. The avaiable voltage is only part of the overall product of the device. The available current is a big factor, running with magnetic headphones. Note that the battery capacity is stated in Ah (Ampere-hour) terms. This is an expression of the amount of time that the battery can deliver current. The output transistors can deliver a varying amount of current (they are switching devices) based upon the control (bias) signal applied to them.

Capacitors are a wonderful thing; several of their properties are uniquely useful. One of their most useful is that they will, if connected in series with a signal, pass the _alternating (_AC) component of the signal, and eliminate (reduce)  the DC component of the signal. Anything in series with the output can, inevitably, color the sound of course.

The available current affects the output in a dynamic way, as the headphone is not just a mere resistance, it’s actually a variable inductor in series with the output. With larger transducers like full-size headphones, the effects are more acute.

The primary difference that I refer to, between the v2 e200 and the Clip series, is the difference in available current (not the similar voltage). The v1 has a big difference overall, as the chipset is entirely different.

Bob  :smileyvery-happy:

Correct, to a point. The avaiable voltage is only part of the overall product of the device. The available current is a big factor, running with magnetic headphones.

 

 

No, its the voltage that determines how much power is available, not the current, since the output impedance of an MP3 player is essentially negligable compared to the headphones.  

 

Note that the battery capacity is stated in Ah (Ampere-hour) terms.

 

This has nothing to do with anything in this thread.  

 

Capacitors are a wonderful thing; several of their properties are uniquely useful. One of their most useful is that they will, if connected in series with a signal, pass the alternating (AC) component of the signal, and eliminate (reduce)  the DC component of the signal. Anything in series with the output can, inevitably, color the sound of course.

 

This is oversimplified.  A capacity in series with an output impedance forms a high pass filter.  Hence, capacitively coupled outputs are generally not prefered in these applications, and modern designs are moving away from them.  Direct coupled outputs in practice tend to produce a more even frequency response and lower overall output impedance (since they capacitor contributes its own complex impedance).   

 

The primary difference that I refer to, between the v2 e200 and the Clip series, is the difference in available current (not the similar voltage).

You are mistaken.  There is absolutely no difference between the e200v2 and Clip series.  Both use identical DACs with equal power output.  

 

Also, its not really meaningful to talk about “available current”, since that is a function of voltage.  The term you are looking for is output impedance, which describes the ability of an amp to supply current into a load independent of voltage.  However, since all mp3 players run with Rout << Rload, the current capacity is essentially identical, or at least it should be or the player will sound really bad.  Instead, output impedance matters because it determines the dampening factor (basically how well the amp can surpress distortion in the transducer) and in the case of capacitively coupled designs, the evenness of the frequency response.

 

FWIW, if you want to know more about this stuff, wikipedia actually has a really pretty good overview:

 

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headphone#Impedance

Hello Saratoga!

Hey, I don’t wan’t to let things devolve into a HeadFi style squabble (nor doI want to pick on anyone per se), but let it suffice that my main engineering point is that, comparing the essentially identcal platforms of the v2 and the other AMS Sansas, the elephant in the room is that battery.

The PCB is physically less cramped as well, but it’s less of a factor.

Take a 12v automotive battery and short the terminals. This is a dangerous propsition, as several hundred amperes will go to work before the battery’s internal resistance comes into play. Now take a miniature 12v “lighter” battery and do the same thing. This will result in a warm battery at best.

The available voltage is limited and affected dynamically once switched at the output. High pass or low pass filtering is dependent upon the desired circuit and component characteristics. Note that I added (reduce) after “eliminate” earlier, as the signal can “bulldog” an offset depending upon the capacitor type.

Power is often confused with current in the modern lexicon. From an engineering standpoint, they are different, as power is the result of current (amperes) x electromotive force (E) expressed in volts. Depending upon the battery’s internal resistance, as well as the complete circuit path, that voltage can dip a bit. This is much more subtle than the variation in current.

As such, this is one factor betwen the two that we can perceive in the end, all else being equal.

Bob :smileyvery-happy:

Hey, I don’t wan’t to let things devolve into a HeadFi style squabble (nor doI want to pick on anyone per se), but let it suffice that my main engineering point is that, comparing the essentially identcal platforms of the v2 and the other AMS Sansas, the elephant in the room is that battery.

 

If you really think this, then you have no idea what you’re talking about and should not be trying to post about these things on the internet.

 

As such, this is one factor betwen the two that we can perceive in the end, all else being equal.

This is just a lot of jibberish.  The battery makes no difference, and in fact, there is no difference between these two players.  

 

 

 

Easy, turbo.

Keep the ego below the redline, no need for that.

:stuck_out_tongue:

No need for what exactly? I’m just correcting your misconceptions.

E.g. “no idea what you’re talking about,” “jibberish” . . . .

No worries. I’ll just stick a few thousand little post-it notes on years of accumulated data sheets. There’s too much dependence upon simulation programs these days. I learned in the days of the slide rule.

Bob :stuck_out_tongue:

@miikerman wrote:

E.g. “no idea what you’re talking about,” “jibberish” . . . .

Calling bull**bleep** when I see it has nothing to do with my ego, just my integrity. If you disagree with me, feel free to explain how.

@neutron_bob wrote:

No worries. I’ll just stick a few thousand little post-it notes on years of accumulated data sheets. There’s too much dependence upon simulation programs these days. I learned in the days of the slide rule.

 

Bob :stuck_out_tongue:

First of all, lots of people have measured this. There is no difference. You haven’t measured anything. I know this because if you had you wouldn’t have tried to say that two identical DACs aren’t identical :slight_smile: Second, who mentioned simulation? I tried to explain to you how the output impedance of amplifiers relates to performance, and how coupling relates to impedance, but this isn’t related to simulating anything. Its just basic amplifier terminology familiar to anyone who has worked in electronics or acoustics. I get it that you think you have some kind of understanding here, and maybe you do know something about electronics in general, but given that you keep misunderstanding what common terms mean in this context, maybe you should reconsider. Or at least take a look at that wikipedia page I gave you before.